OOC Accusations of cheating on the Forum

[Indirik]

Is any of that exchange between you two pertinent to the case? As far as I can tell, it does absolutely nothing to clarify either of the two issues Tom highlighted.

[Anaris]

I did not meant "some". I did not write any nuance in that comment (mind you, I rarely nuance my words). In this case, I really did mean "all of the lurian exiles don't consider the Lurias to be a civilized place". All of those that I heard of, at least, and I think I heard them all speak. In any case, I really was referring to all of them.

Oh!

I see; I honestly thought that you meant "Not all the Solarian exiles would call you civilized."

And if I could make that mistake, couldn't Solari have done the same?

[Anaris]

Is any of that exchange between you two pertinent to the case? As far as I can tell, it does absolutely nothing to clarify either of the two issues Tom highlighted.

Well, I think it is pertinent to the case whether Solari was calling all Solarian exiles who fled to D'Hara cheaters, or only those of whom he had personal knowledge and actual confessions of cheating.

[Solari]

At no point did I accuse T-Rex Messiah of cheating. I didn't reference him, even vaguely. He wrongly assumed that I was referring to him. That's his own problem, and I won't take responsibility for his persecution complex.

Here's the sticky wicket: of the two people I was referring to (not every Solarian exile—that's an astounding leap of logic to make when I was clearly talking only about a subset of a group), those who need to know are aware of the evidence. It's clear to them how I arrived at my conclusions. How much of that can be relayed here? All of it? Some of it? None of it? Otherwise, what we have is someone grinding an axe against me based on a faulty assumption that they were the target of my comments.

[DamnTaffer]

At no point did I accuse T-Rex Messiah of cheating. I didn't reference him, even vaguely. He wrongly assumed that I was referring to him. That's his own problem, and I won't take responsibility for his persecution complex.

Here's the sticky wicket: of the two people I was referring to (not every Solarian exile—that's an astounding leap of logic to make when I was clearly talking only about a subset of a group), those who need to know are aware of the evidence. It's clear to them how I arrived at my conclusions. How much of that can be relayed here? All of it? Some of it? None of it? Otherwise, what we have is someone grinding an axe against me based on a faulty assumption that they were the target of my comments.

Actually, this is my case, not his.

[Solari]

• was a public accusation of cheating (etc) made?

In response to Chénier's comment about Solarian exiles, I made a reference to "cheaters".

• was it made without proof or evidence?

The evidence is not, strictly speaking, public knowledge. The exchange between me and the player could be used, but that's long since been lost to the message buffer monster. The technical details are known, however, including what's in the two Titan reports, and do not really appear to be disputed. Given this, I probably shouldn't have said anything, because the inability to readily tie a public comment to private information is a mess of my own making. That said, I don't believe my mistake meets this second criterion. I just should have had the good sense to censor myself.

[Solari]

Actually, this is my case, not his.

That's great. He's still the only person offering his opinions in this thread, so unless you want him to co-opt your grievance, we would all benefit from your thoughts.

[DamnTaffer]

That's great. He's still the only person offering his opinions in this thread, so unless you want him to co-opt your grievance, we would all benefit from your thoughts.

You publicly accused a vague number of players of cheating, something that is against the rules and detrimental to how much people can enjoy the game. You claim to have enough evidence to form two titan complaints, then let that run its course and if you feel the need then cite it on the forums.

Definately don't ever accuse players of cheating if you can't provide proof immediately to back up your claims. We have both seen how battlemaster reacts to accusations of cheating and yet you still feel the need to publicly bring that topic up again... It was a poorly thought out course of action and you should have known better

[Fury]

What needs to be done is to decide if the BM Forums is regarded as public and is part of the playing experience (Social Contract: When playing, you agree to these terms...)

YES
Forum is an extension of BM
BM players frequent the forum

NO
The game is not played in the forum
The forum has looser standards, ex. cussing

As for the second part of providing proof of cheating, apparently it is not possible due to the passage of time.

Thirdly, the context of which it was said and the fact that the 'accusation' was moderated away.

[Solari]

As for the second part of providing proof of cheating, apparently it is not possible due to the passage of time.

This is only partially true. There's information available to devs that's been referenced here, and that's the problem. Nobody's really disputing that the technical evidence backs up the accusation, so even absent the player's confession, the evidence exists. I made a public reference to private information. Because this information wasn't available to everyone, it created unnecessary confusion and allowed for all sorts of speculation. I just shouldn't have made the comment, because now we're trying to prove a case with evidence that is effectively sealed.

[egamma]

This is only partially true. There's information available to devs that's been referenced here, and that's the problem. Nobody's really disputing that the technical evidence backs up the accusation, so even absent the player's confession, the evidence exists. I made a public reference to private information. Because this information wasn't available to everyone, it created unnecessary confusion and allowed for all sorts of speculation. I just shouldn't have made the comment, because now we're trying to prove a case with evidence that is effectively sealed.

What do you mean, "sealed"? Is there no record of the findings and outcomes of titan cases? I would expect Tom to have an email from the Titans at least.

In my view, the evidence doesn't have to be made public. As long as Tom can look at the "information available to devs", and testify that there were at least two cheaters who moved from Solaria to D'Hara, then Solari is off the hook.

[Chenier]

Two cheaters, then? There are more solarian exiles than that. I therefore consider the accusation to thereby be injurious to innocent players, because it causes players to unduly suspect these players of being cheaters for the mere fact that they have played in Solaria before.

If you want to call people cheaters, then name them and provide evidence. If you can't name them, don't bring accusations. Is it acceptable to claim that thulsomans are cheaters? No. Some of them (perhaps many) did, but they didn't all do so. And as a result of this behavior, we see people persecuted for having been part of that realm, even if they had been playing the game in their respective realms since far earlier. The same applies here. "Solarian exiles" is a vague reference to an undetermined number of people. There are more than two D'Harans who come from the Lurias. 4 have joined us in the last two months. More are likely to follow.

2 D'Haran players are, right now, being suspected of cheating because of Salari's comments, despite not having been found guilty of doing anything wrong.

[Jim]

At no point did I accuse T-Rex Messiah of cheating. I didn't reference him, even vaguely. He wrongly assumed that I was referring to him. That's his own problem, and I won't take responsibility for his persecution complex.

Here's the sticky wicket: of the two people I was referring to (not every Solarian exile—that's an astounding leap of logic to make when I was clearly talking only about a subset of a group), those who need to know are aware of the evidence. It's clear to them how I arrived at my conclusions. How much of that can be relayed here? All of it? Some of it? None of it? Otherwise, what we have is someone grinding an axe against me based on a faulty assumption that they were the target of my comments.

There is no persecution complex. You threw out a blanketed accusation that was in response to D'haran refugees being mentioned. Whether you choose to accept the fact that I was one of those refugees or not is up to you, you got yourself into this and you have nobody to blame but yourself. Moderator removed--offtopic The issue is no longer about if you accused people of cheating, we already came to the conclusion that you did this. Whether you meant it towards me or others is no longer relevant, what is relevant is that you made an accusation that could be interpreted by others as an attack against them. additional removal--see rules below

Removed several quotes. +1 is not a comment.

To review the rules:
remain strictly on topic. Information relevant to the actual case only.

This goes especially for speculations, hypotheticals, variations - discussing of the this could be... if... kind are unwanted. We have a specific case before us and will decide that case, nothing else.

be positive and friendly. Don't insult or troll.

add new information. Repeating a point does not increase its truth value.

[Chenier]

T-Rex, you need to stop being so vindictive. It's borderline harassment.

The case will probably be decided soon, I think we are getting pretty much all of what we need.

[Jim]

T-Rex, you need to stop being so vindictive. It's borderline harassment.

The case will probably be decided soon, I think we are getting pretty much all of what we need.

I don't see myself as being vindictive, but I've said all I need to say so I'll chill.