Realm Merger of Solaria and Luria Nova

[Nosferatus]

Well, to everyone, as the game evolves so does my vision of it.

As I said, in times past there were various reasons to disallow or allow things that may no longer be as true as they used to be.

Both the capital and the last duchy of a realm wanting to change allegiance are strange border cases with multitudes of issues on both sides. I'm not really sure what the game-mechanics should be, but does it really not strike anyone else as extremely odd an event?

Then perhaps, if we allow realm merges, and the merge of a capital into another realm(which i competly disagree with, i mean if you want to merge the capital just take it with an army, not everything in this game should be possible peacefuly), code an extra penalty in stats for the entire capital duchy once it joins another realm.
If we allow it atleast we should make it quite dificult.

[Foundation]

I agree completely with Tom.  Capitals should not be able to switch allegiance, and it's extremely easy now to add it in code.

I remember capitals being used as a measure to prevent secessions at one time, but I also remember that there were no game mechanics to enforce it at other times.

I ask one question further, what is the difference between a realm merger, and one where all but 2 essentially rogue regions are merged with another realm.  Those regions will go rogue within a few weeks alone with no capital and no cities.

EDIT: refer to quote further down.

[vonGenf]

I ask one question further, what is the difference between a realm merger, and one where all but 2 essentially rogue regions are merged with another realm.  Those regions will go rogue within a few weeks alone with no capital and no cities.

It depends if the ruler agrees.

[Solari]

I ask one question further, what is the difference between a realm merger, and one where all but 2 essentially rogue regions are merged with another realm.  Those regions will go rogue within a few weeks alone with no capital and no cities.

There are two conceptions here of the term "merger". One is purely mechanics and the other involves mushy things like motives and intent. I have understood merger to imply that there is an understanding between the leadership of two realms that one will simply give up and be subsumed by the other. We've frowned on this in part because it potentially shortchanges the wishes of other players in the realm that's dying.

In the end, the functional outcome of Sun Hall joining Luria Nova could be the same as if the entire realm were merged into Luria Nova, but that wasn't the intent. If the second duchy had been larger, it could be argued that it would survive on its own. Do we want to attempt the creation of a framework that says "duchies must be size n, else defections of other duchies can't happen?" My personal opinion is that the question of mergers is similar to the idea of "strategic secessions". They're both situational and incredibly messy and prone to attempts by affected parties to game the final decision. Tom largely dismissed the idea of regulating strategic secessions—I thought—so I don't know why we're trying to regulate the same phenomenon but in reverse.

[egamma]

In my view, a "friendly realm merger" is when a method other than war and takeovers is used to join the entirety of two realms together.

Joining the duchy of Sun Hall to Luria Nova was not a bug exploit, because the last city/stronghold in the realm was not taken.

Joining the stronghold of Balance's Retreat to Luria Nova is exploiting bug 7360, and furthermore, is a friendly realm merger, as defined by me, above. The Magistrates might come up with a different definition, of course.

The question that remains, I guess, is whether Wolfey knew that this was a bug, and how that affects the outcome of the case.

[Solari]

Here's the issue: you can't secede with the capital duchy. You haven't been able to for a long time, if ever. You can change allegiance with the capital duchy, provided there's another region—and duchy—remaining that is capable of becoming the capital. This has been the case for a very long time. Intended or not. And it's been done. A lot.

This is looking less like a Magistrate case and more like a coding puzzle. There's clearly conflicting controls in the code here, and from what I've seen, whatever is decided will require action in the code one way or another.

[Forbes Family]

The joining of Sun Hall Duchy to LN may not be a bug exploit, however it is the intent that one needs to look at and if the intent is in line with the spirit of the game.

I have understood merger to imply that there is an understanding between the leadership of two realms that one will simply give up and be subsumed by the other. We've frowned on this in part because it potentially shortchanges the wishes of other players in the realm that's dying.

All but two regions ended up moving to another realm. There was really no opportunity for the other nobles of Solaria to choose if they wanted to join LN or not.

Basically it boils down to this.

"If it quacks like a duck, and it waddles like a duck... get your shotgun out 'cause it's duck hunting time"

[Anaris]

The joining of Sun Hall Duchy to LN may not be a bug exploit, however it is the intent that one needs to look at and if the intent is in line with the spirit of the game.

All but two regions ended up moving to another realm. There was really no opportunity for the other nobles of Solaria to choose if they wanted to join LN or not.

Basically it boils down to this.

"If it quacks like a duck, and it waddles like a duck... get your shotgun out 'cause it's duck hunting time"

But Solari wasn't the ruler.

This was a power play, not a realm merger.

[Geronus]

Poryatown changing allegiance does not seem to me to have been a violation of the rules. Clearly there is a fairly broad understanding that prior to this event, it was not considered a bug for capitals to be able to change allegiance. I cannot think of any reason to punish the player responsible that does not involve ex post facto changes.

As to the second duchy changing allegiance, that is clearly the result of a bug. However, the intent is questionable. From comments that have been made here, it does not sound like the goal from the beginning of this chain of events was to achieve a realm merger; rather, one duke made a power play, and then the other duke responded by also switching allegiance because he felt he had no other choice if he wanted his stronghold to survive. The only real question in my mind is whether he knew that his ability to do so was the result of a bug.

[Woelfy]

Poryatown changing allegiance does not seem to me to have been a violation of the rules. Clearly there is a fairly broad understanding that prior to this event, it was not considered a bug for capitals to be able to change allegiance. I cannot think of any reason to punish the player responsible that does not involve ex post facto changes.

As to the second duchy changing allegiance, that is clearly the result of a bug. However, the intent is questionable. From comments that have been made here, it does not sound like the goal from the beginning of this chain of events was to achieve a realm merger; rather, one duke made a power play, and then the other duke responded by also switching allegiance because he felt he had no other choice if he wanted his stronghold to survive. The only real question in my mind is whether he knew that his ability to do so was the result of a bug.

I had no idea it was a bug. It was an option in the game with a clickable link that looked as legitimate as any other link that I click.

I've said it before: if this is in fact a breach of the rules, I am prepared to deal with the repercussions. Solari is not at fault, nor are any of the poor sods who were left behind with Sevastian.

[Vellos]

I had no idea it was a bug. It was an option in the game with a clickable link that looked as legitimate as any other link that I click.

I've said it before: if this is in fact a breach of the rules, I am prepared to deal with the repercussions. Solari is not at fault, nor are any of the poor sods who were left behind with Sevastian.

.... you were told it was believed to be impossible, that it was supposed to be impossible. You were told that merging the last duchy was a merger.

[Foundation]

.... you were told it was believed to be impossible, that it was supposed to be impossible. You were told that merging the last duchy was a merger.

Eh... when?

[Woelfy]

.... you were told it was believed to be impossible, that it was supposed to be impossible. You were told that merging the last duchy was a merger.

? I had no idea about the whole merger issue until after it was reported, and then reported again. I've been dealing with crazy RL issues and barely even skimming my messages, let alone the forums.

I believed that things that were exploits were remedied, or far more difficult to do. I clicked a link that looked like every other thing I've ever clicked in game.

So, what I'm taking from the point of view of a certain number of people, is that after Sun Hall switched to Luria Nova, I couldn't have changed the allegiance of the final duchy to any realm whatsoever because then someone would scream 'merger'? I should have just remained a single non-capital stronghold with no funds available until the day it went rogue?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

[Anaris]

So, what I'm taking from the point of view of a certain number of people, is that after Sun Hall switched to Luria Nova, I couldn't have changed the allegiance of the final duchy to any realm whatsoever because then someone would scream 'merger'? I should have just remained a single non-capital stronghold with no funds available until the day it went rogue?

No—at least, from the perspective of this dev, after Sun Hall switched to LN, it should have been impossible for you to change the allegiance of the final duchy to anything.

And the expectation of the game is that, if you lose control of your capital and you do not have the funds to move it, your realm is probably effectively dead anyway.

[Woelfy]

Precisely, what option did I have?

The option to change allegiance came up on the politics screen, and I took it. I did not realize that it was a violation.

That's all I can really say, and I am prepared to face the consequences if in fact I am found guilty of exploitation. I'm not going to try and get out of it, no one would be at fault but me. It's been made clear that the capital duchy switch was legitimate, and it was my mistake to think otherwise. The subsequent switching of allegiance was based on necessity and that's all there is to it. I apologize for the ruckus this caused.