Author Topic: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures  (Read 15799 times)

Indirik

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #75: October 18, 2012, 04:36:03 AM »
That, too.
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Arundel

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #76: October 18, 2012, 05:26:16 AM »
Or look at the wiki (which most respectable religions should work on at leasing providing some basic info for).

The wiki is frequently outdated for several religions. Whether or not they should update it, they don't.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 05:28:36 AM by Arundel »
The adherents of different religions in a realm should compete for power, influence, and fresh converts. They don't even have to be killing each other to do so. I wish people promoted the prosperity of their religions the same way they promoted the growth and prosperity of their realms. - Geronus

Eldargard

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #77: October 18, 2012, 06:52:12 AM »
I also think that, if only listing titles of Elders, it would be fine to leave out the generic title. As was already stated different religions have different structures. I can imagine a religion having a council of three level 2 members jointly leading the religion. Which is the head? Often a founder does not seek to be the single authoritative voice and leader of a religion.  It is enough for the people to know he/she is an elder. The exact structure can be divulged via IC discussions perhaps?

Arundel

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #78: October 18, 2012, 11:57:45 PM »
I also think that, if only listing titles of Elders, it would be fine to leave out the generic title. As was already stated different religions have different structures. I can imagine a religion having a council of three level 2 members jointly leading the religion. Which is the head? Often a founder does not seek to be the single authoritative voice and leader of a religion.  It is enough for the people to know he/she is an elder. The exact structure can be divulged via IC discussions perhaps?

Hmm, a council of leaders is a definite possibility. But I still think the majority of religions are lead by one person, and making a distinction is incredibly important to the core idea of this feature request (since its the head/heads that are the most recognized than the other members). So I would suggest alternatively that all three of those members, by your example, have themselves labeled head instead.

Its much more natural to have a recipient identify that you're the head, and explain to them afterwards that you share that responsibility with three other people. The transition in the recipient's mind is much more smooth, considering they've already labeled you a leader. Rather than, by contrast, trudging through an obscure title and having to articulate the fact that you're a leader. They'll have identified you as an important person, but when they're informed of your real title, their mindset will shift and a complete and unnatural change in the conversation will follow.

Beyond social cues, you - the noble - would identify yourself in your own letters that you're a head/leader; whether or not its a shared title, a hierarchy is maintained and cherished.
The adherents of different religions in a realm should compete for power, influence, and fresh converts. They don't even have to be killing each other to do so. I wish people promoted the prosperity of their religions the same way they promoted the growth and prosperity of their realms. - Geronus

Chenier

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #79: October 19, 2012, 12:44:25 AM »
Hmm, a council of leaders is a definite possibility. But I still think the majority of religions are lead by one person, and making a distinction is incredibly important to the core idea of this feature request (since its the head/heads that are the most recognized than the other members). So I would suggest alternatively that all three of those members, by your example, have themselves labeled head instead.

Its much more natural to have a recipient identify that you're the head, and explain to them afterwards that you share that responsibility with three other people. The transition in the recipient's mind is much more smooth, considering they've already labeled you a leader. Rather than, by contrast, trudging through an obscure title and having to articulate the fact that you're a leader. They'll have identified you as an important person, but when they're informed of your real title, their mindset will shift and a complete and unnatural change in the conversation will follow.

Beyond social cues, you - the noble - would identify yourself in your own letters that you're a head/leader; whether or not its a shared title, a hierarchy is maintained and cherished.

Verdis Elementum should theoretically have 5 different elders with different titles leading together. I don't think we've every had an elder for all elements at the same time, though.

Indirik

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #80: October 19, 2012, 01:17:20 AM »
If Brance (my Dwilight character) were to use religious titles in his signature, the idea of adding "Head of Sanguis Asgtroism" wokuld never occur to him, even though he can be considered to be that. The problem is that the position "Head of Sanguis Astroism" simply does not exist. We have many leaders for different aspects.

Is there possibility for confusion based on a profusion of new titles? Of course. Some players may recall that this was one of the reasons this was never implemented before.

For myself, I am strongly against adding the fictitious title of "Head of (Religion)". It is not something that the real noble would do.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 01:19:37 AM by Indirik »
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Arundel

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #81: October 19, 2012, 03:44:54 AM »
If Brance (my Dwilight character) were to use religious titles in his signature, the idea of adding "Head of Sanguis Asgtroism" wokuld never occur to him, even though he can be considered to be that. The problem is that the position "Head of Sanguis Astroism" simply does not exist. We have many leaders for different aspects.

Is there possibility for confusion based on a profusion of new titles? Of course. Some players may recall that this was one of the reasons this was never implemented before.

For myself, I am strongly against adding the fictitious title of "Head of (Religion)". It is not something that the real noble would do.

But the real noble would sign his religious title, especially if he was in the high echelons of its hierarchy. The suggestion for clarification is there because it would be needed for nobles to understand custom titles. The reason Kings and councilors don't do it is because those ranks are easily identified, with three clicks of a button.

On an added note, a "head" does not necessarily mean the leader of all authority. As I understand it, the elder rank "Light of the Maddening Star" in SA would be the leader of all militant actions. A "head" could be deemed closest to God/Gods/Essence/Celestial Body/divine morality, or have power over the religion at large. Like Brance's title of "Regent" suggests, he is the person who exercises the ruling power in the religion in the absence, disability, or death of the prophet. That definition would apply universally to any top ranked noble (1 or 2), as they control the religion and everyone in it; nobody can demote them or protest them out.

Hence they are the "head."
The adherents of different religions in a realm should compete for power, influence, and fresh converts. They don't even have to be killing each other to do so. I wish people promoted the prosperity of their religions the same way they promoted the growth and prosperity of their realms. - Geronus

Indirik

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #82: October 19, 2012, 04:33:25 AM »
But the real noble would sign his religious title, especially if he was in the high echelons of its hierarchy. The suggestion for clarification is there because it would be needed for nobles to understand custom titles. The reason Kings and councilors don't do it is because those ranks are easily identified, with three clicks of a button.
The reason rulers don't do it is because "Ruler of (Realm)" is NOT one of their titles.

I highly dislike the idea of the game inventing fictitious titles for characters, applying them potentially inaccurately, and blanket labeling all highest ranked religious leaders with identical titles. We obviously disagree, and won't agree, and we've both made our points clear. We should probably let it go, and see where it goes from here.
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Arundel

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #83: October 19, 2012, 05:11:00 AM »
The reason rulers don't do it is because "Ruler of (Realm)" is NOT one of their titles.

I highly dislike the idea of the game inventing fictitious titles for characters, applying them potentially inaccurately, and blanket labeling all highest ranked religious leaders with identical titles. We obviously disagree, and won't agree, and we've both made our points clear. We should probably let it go, and see where it goes from here.

Deal.

What I will not forfeit, however, is my argument in favor of elders publishing their religious titles in their letters. Its something real nobles would do because they'd be in positions of significant authority, and would be recognized as such. Religions can expand much quicker than realms, have more followers, and extend their authority into the political world. If the title is too custom for another person to understand, then I suppose its up to their own volition to figure out - should it be decided that we won't clarify.
The adherents of different religions in a realm should compete for power, influence, and fresh converts. They don't even have to be killing each other to do so. I wish people promoted the prosperity of their religions the same way they promoted the growth and prosperity of their realms. - Geronus

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #84: October 19, 2012, 05:53:12 AM »
I really don't see why it's so important for people outside of a religion to know exactly what every specific title and position is for. It's enough that you know they carry weight within their religion for most things you'd be concerned with.

Draco Tanos

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #85: October 19, 2012, 06:05:01 AM »
And if they're that curious, they can ask.

If the members of the religion get tired of people asking and having to explain due to lack of information, they can get off their rears and update their wiki page.

Arundel

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #86: October 19, 2012, 06:09:53 AM »
I really don't see why it's so important for people outside of a religion to know exactly what every specific title and position is for. It's enough that you know they carry weight within their religion for most things you'd be concerned with.
And if they're that curious, they can ask.

If the members of the religion get tired of people asking and having to explain due to lack of information, they can get off their rears and update their wiki page.

You won't see protest from me, so long as the elders' titles show and religion granted recognition for their authority.
The adherents of different religions in a realm should compete for power, influence, and fresh converts. They don't even have to be killing each other to do so. I wish people promoted the prosperity of their religions the same way they promoted the growth and prosperity of their realms. - Geronus

Penchant

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #87: October 19, 2012, 06:15:16 AM »
I really don't see why it's so important for people outside of a religion to know exactly what every specific title and position is for. It's enough that you know they carry weight within their religion for most things you'd be concerned with.
+1.  The point of elders getting their custom title in their signature would be to show they are an elder. It is not elder of (religion) because that is implied and they would not sign that as it is not their title, their title is the custom name.

Arundel

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Re: Head of Religion Titles in All Signatures
« Reply #88: November 08, 2012, 04:10:51 AM »
Bumping for a more official response.

The suggestion overall has turned into the following:

Summary:

Elders of religion are to add their religious titles in their signatures for every letter they publish.

Details:

All elders should have their religious titles included in every letter they publish, matching those of secular titles in order to promote a more realistic and improved religious game to Battlemaster. Though religion is optional, I see no problem in having it parallel and nearly equal to the secular game. In addition, the title "Priest of Religion" should be removed for Elders, as it may clash with the custom title.

The following examples provide an exact image of what's being requested:

Liara Anaris
Viscountess of Ajitmon
Founder of Quintarianism

Selene Octavius
Viscountess of Anaos
High Priestess of the Church of Sartan  (example of where the original priest title would clash/become redundant information.)

Benefits:

This suggestion adds custom religious titles of elders to letters at the same level as secular titles. The suggestion benefits the optional religious game in a manner that is both realistic and motivational. Realistic because it is widely accepted that high ranking members of religious organizations, in medieval times, signed their every letter with their religious title. It was important to them, expected of them, and a show of affluence and authority in a world where such things mattered most. It is motivational because it adds a simple, yet long desired aspect to the religious game. It hinders no one - cults having been argued to become secret societies, hence the function of a cult - and benefits a large amount of people. The suggestion addresses an obvious lack in religious recognition, such a factor being important in real medieval life. Though Battlemaster is evidently a game, and religion optional, it is still felt that this lack is far too obvious, and it should be addressed simply.

Possible Exploits:

Simply put, silly titles. This, however, is matched by the customization of government titles. In contrast, a religious leader cannot be protested from his position, making the title more permanent and difficult to remove. I see no real problem with this, since it will evidently give label to silly and perhaps undesirable players (depending on taste.)

Optional additions:

An option to show these titles or not, in the form of a checkbox, has been pushed for by people who have posted in this thread. I would assume this the harder portion to code, hence why I did not include it in the primary suggestion.
The adherents of different religions in a realm should compete for power, influence, and fresh converts. They don't even have to be killing each other to do so. I wish people promoted the prosperity of their religions the same way they promoted the growth and prosperity of their realms. - Geronus