Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?

[Indirik]

...Shin will temporarily become a lord...

Temporarily become a lord? That doesn't sound very SMA... 

[Shenron]

Temporarily become a lord? That doesn't sound very SMA... 

Stop being mean 

[De-Legro]

Temporarily become a lord? That doesn't sound very SMA... 

Got to agree with this. Temporary lord positions just so someone can create a religion just sounds wrong.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Lords lose their positions anyway to start a religion. He *could* just say he had a revelation that he doesn't want to be a lord anymore or something. I'm not condoning any "temporary lord" actions, but I'm just saying what could be a valid in-character explanation for becoming a lord and subsequent separation from the position.

[De-Legro]

To me, if you took the Lordship as a player intending to just create the religion, and the other players involved knew about this, then it is just a weak IC excuse to cover a OOC agreement.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Sometimes it's best not to accuse too quickly, unless there's really strong evidence. I won't say anything about this case, but let's draw a hypothetical.

Say that I wanted to start a new religion. By this game's design, I can only do that if I am lord or duke. So obviously if I want to start my own religion then I will have to seek a lordship. I think that what might be the issue here is that the lordship is granted OOCly, but that doesn't have to be the case. Who knows, maybe the ruler who appoints lords thinks the idea is great and appoints me so I can start this religion. By mechanics I get automatically separated from the region. In such a case, yes, I would have pursued the lordship solely in order to start a religion. I mean, what other choice do I have in the matter? There is no other way to start a religion.

It gets a bit hard to decide in these cases because of the limitations imposed by game mechanics. And human intentions, especially of other people, are notoriously difficult to comprehend.

[De-Legro]

The reason we are questioning it is his use of the word "Temporary Lordship". If in IC he deceives everyone with the goal of getting to Lord just so he can start his religion then all fine and good. When you use the term temporary lordship it has all sorts of OOC connotations. Of course he can always be granted the Lordship again after he starts the religion.

[ó Broin]

My opinion is the restrictions are probably there for a reason. It is not sufficient to just say, well this is what we have to do to get around the mechanics. Even IC, it I was getting appointed to a region just to start a religion, I would think that a bit odd. In these cases I try to think, what would be reasonable in a real world situation (obviously a very weird real world  ) I just can't see a Duke or Ruler appointing anyone just so they can start a religion.

[Bedwyr]

See, I've never understood this.  What people seem to be saying is the only legitimate way to start a religion is if you are already a Lord or Duke.  Why can't a noble convince a Ruler or Duke that their religion is awesome, and be granted a region specifically to formally start the religion?  That seems perfectly in-character to me.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I think most people here agree that is the case. It might be the part where Shenron said "temporary lord", although I think it deserves an explanation from the guy who said it. "Temporary lord" can have very different meanings. It could mean an OOC arranged appointment for the sole purpose of starting a religion, hence temporary would refer to being a lord only short-term in order to achieve an agenda that was handled beyond the level of character-character. It could mean the acknowledgement that starting a new religion breaks the lordship, hence temporary would refer literally to game mechanics.

[De-Legro]

See, I've never understood this.  What people seem to be saying is the only legitimate way to start a religion is if you are already a Lord or Duke.  Why can't a noble convince a Ruler or Duke that their religion is awesome, and be granted a region specifically to formally start the religion?  That seems perfectly in-character to me.

Because a Lordship is more then a vehicle to create a religion. The thinking starts with the though, would a medieval lord give away a Lordship just to form a religion. Of course this is a rather difficult line of thinking, because it is trying to combine the though process of a historical age, with a game mechanic.

Really unless Tom has made a ruling on granting a region for this purpose, it is up to individual realms to decide what is appropriate for them.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Even if the answer is "No, he would not", there are no other ways to achieve this. It's possible for someone to become a lord through any other means, and for whatever other reasons, and one day have divine inspiration. But that probably doesn't exactly follow the process of all potential prophets. Hey, Henry VIII (I know he's a later time period, but this is just as an example) formed the Anglican Church just so he could divorce his wife. Reasons can get strange.

But the end-all I think is that one shouldn't go to some realm where the ruler or whoever decides the lordships make one's character a lord for the sole OOC purpose of starting a religion. Unfortunately, as I said before, knowing the true intentions, especially of other people, is very difficult to find out, unless one or more of them said they were doing it purely OOCly with in-game interactions coming secondary. It doesn't mean they had no IC interaction, just that the OOC considerations (maybe ruler was the lord's real life friend) far outweighted the IC justifications.

[De-Legro]

Even if the answer is "No, he would not", there are no other ways to achieve this. It's possible for someone to become a lord through any other means, and for whatever other reasons, and one day have divine inspiration. But that probably doesn't exactly follow the process of all potential prophets. Hey, Henry VIII (I know he's a later time period, but this is just as an example) formed the Anglican Church just so he could divorce his wife. Reasons can get strange.

But the end-all I think is that one shouldn't go to some realm where the ruler or whoever decides the lordships make one's character a lord for the sole OOC purpose of starting a religion. Unfortunately, as I said before, knowing the true intentions, especially of other people, is very difficult to find out, unless one or more of them said they were doing it purely OOCly with in-game interactions coming secondary. It doesn't mean they had no IC interaction, just that the OOC considerations (maybe ruler was the lord's real life friend) far outweighted the IC justifications.

This unfortunately is what I see all to often. A group on IRC discussing a idea for a religion, and then the suggestion that they all join X realm because Y is ruler there, or is a Duke and can set them up with a region. It is a difficult one though, on one hand we want to see new and vibrant religions start. On the other we don't want to encourage OOC manipulation of game mechanics. In the end though even if it is OOC character, its not like it is some horrible game ruining action.

[Bedwyr]

But the end-all I think is that one shouldn't go to some realm where the ruler or whoever decides the lordships make one's character a lord for the sole OOC purpose of starting a religion.

Again, my problem with this line of thinking is that line, right there.  Yes, arranging it OOC is bad for the same reason that arranging anything OOC is bad.

But if someone /IC/ has a religious revelation, and /IC/ convinces the Ruler/Duke/voting populace that their religion is awesome, then why is appointing them to a region for the sole purpose of starting a religion bad?

[egamma]

Again, my problem with this line of thinking is that line, right there.  Yes, arranging it OOC is bad for the same reason that arranging anything OOC is bad.

But if someone /IC/ has a religious revelation, and /IC/ convinces the Ruler/Duke/voting populace that their religion is awesome, then why is appointing them to a region for the sole purpose of starting a religion bad?

Bingo. The character wants to start a religion, and needs to be a lord to establish the first temple and become its' profit. So, the character asks a Duke to be appointed region lord, explaining his reasoning--the reason, of course, is that only region lords own their region and control the construction of large buildings like temples.

What's OOC about that?