Author Topic: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?  (Read 28891 times)

Hyral

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Re: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?
« Reply #75: April 07, 2011, 06:12:51 PM »
So you're going to ignore fodder's point as well?  Someone else founding the religion, violating the text on becoming the prophet, getting immediately reappointed and changing out of Priest as soon as they can is better than getting a temporary lordship through completely IC means?

It wasn't my intention to ignore anyone ;A; But I do think that you might be putting too much stock in "completely IC means", we can wrap just about anything in a wonderful roleplay and make it IC, that doesn't mean it's within the spirit of the game.

But no, I don't think the situation fodder posed is any better than a placeholder (though I'm starting to think that we BMers are becoming quite cynical, look at all these shady workarounds we come up with!), what I've been trying to get at is that something in the system needs changing. Both options we can currently use are technically violations of SMA spirit/game rules, so, something needs to change. Perth's idea is excellent. I'm biased, but I really do think it's best that the religion have followers before it is officially founded. Religions are so much about roleplay and immersion, you really need to set the scene before you start to worry about building stuff and preaching skill and all that. How to say, like...being a team before you run out onto the field?

Vellos

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Re: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?
« Reply #76: April 08, 2011, 01:14:35 AM »
Right, so the problem becomes not really that you can't get a lordship if you intend to found a religion, since the character does not *know* he is going to step down, but rather that everybody around has to act unhappy when it happens, even though their players know that it was game-mechanic imposed.

I always found these to be difficult to RP around, frankly. But it can be done.

More than act unhappy, they must be unhappy, same as if a lord had violated his oath to loyally manage the region for some other reason.

Though BM players don't very well RP that anyways.
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Re: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?
« Reply #77: April 08, 2011, 01:49:37 AM »
It wasn't my intention to ignore anyone ;A; But I do think that you might be putting too much stock in "completely IC means", we can wrap just about anything in a wonderful roleplay and make it IC, that doesn't mean it's within the spirit of the game.

But no, I don't think the situation fodder posed is any better than a placeholder (though I'm starting to think that we BMers are becoming quite cynical, look at all these shady workarounds we come up with!), what I've been trying to get at is that something in the system needs changing. Both options we can currently use are technically violations of SMA spirit/game rules, so, something needs to change. Perth's idea is excellent. I'm biased, but I really do think it's best that the religion have followers before it is officially founded. Religions are so much about roleplay and immersion, you really need to set the scene before you start to worry about building stuff and preaching skill and all that. How to say, like...being a team before you run out onto the field?

Kind of hard to do that when there's nothing officially established. While values can be assigned in terms of religion concentration and spread, how would it be organized? And who would be able to start such an idea? Anyone? That would only lead to a couple hundred pre-religions floating around every region.

But if it's restricted to only a certain few, then just replace the lordship with whatever new selection rule is formed for these "religion precursors" as players who are really intent on starting their own religion make a mad dash to attain the requirements to start.

And since someone is bound to ask, what I think is to make the "Prophet" selection post-establishment. Let the #1 position be placed to anyone chosen or trusted to lead the faith. Don't make it automatically the founder of the first temple. I think there was something on Dlist about replacing the #1 position after the founder has disappeared, and something about intra-religion referendums. Same deal here, just at establishment, much like a newly formed colony.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 01:52:18 AM by Artemesia »

Hyral

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Re: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?
« Reply #78: April 08, 2011, 05:14:01 AM »
Kind of hard to do that when there's nothing officially established. While values can be assigned in terms of religion concentration and spread, how would it be organized? And who would be able to start such an idea? Anyone? That would only lead to a couple hundred pre-religions floating around every region.

It is not impossibly hard to form the structure of a religion and convince characters to believe in it without the mechanics that back established faiths, religion existed in BM before religions became a mechanic.

A temporary lordship from a friendly duke is easier to obtain than 10 devoted followers, and we don't have hundreds of religions per region now. As it stands, anyone who has an idea can start on the road to founding a religion. That would not change. What I would like to see change are the requirements. Right now all anyone needs is a lordship, and that's an awkward business. What I think would be better is a) some h/p/time in realm requirement to get the option "found a religion, b) sign up a number of followers, let's say ten, and c) build a temple to establish your religion officially (you would have to convert a lord, which also gives your religion a base in realm politics). The character who starts the 'gather followers' bit is ranked Founder, for the sake of simplicity, and everything else is set up afterward. I was thinking that there needed to be some sort of loss by the founder for balance, as the giving-up-lordship represents now, but the way most people use it, they never intended to keep the lordship in the first place, so it's no loss...

Would there be religions-in-the-making floating around, I imagine so, yes. But religions remaining unestablished until it is sculpted enough to attract interest does not sound like a bad thing, in my opinion.

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Re: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?
« Reply #79: April 08, 2011, 11:54:29 AM »
Having some half-baked religions around...actually probably isn't too different from what already exists. But even so, when talking about what we can accomplish through roleplaying means, almost anything is possible. But if we're talking about a game-mechanic change, I think that less complex is better. It seems more difficult to alter the code of how religions are formed. In the current system, as far as the game cares, a religion only exists when the first temple is built. Everything else is fine among players, but the game's verdict is: Can you preach? Influence? Without making the first temple, the answer is no.

So where am I going with this? Well, on one hand, we can change the way religion works just to solve seemingly one problem, that of temporary lordships, which may or may not be as much of a problem as it sounds. I think that a more amenable solution would be to avoid making any large changes in how this system works, and modify the existing one by integrating another existing mechanic.

As I said before, there has been discussion in the past about replacing a #1 position in a religion when the player of said character has left the game. Darkanism was the religion in question. One of the suggestions was to hold referendum to vote in a new #1. I think that such a solution would be fairly simple and efficient. We already have the referendum in place, and from what I can see, it's pretty flexible. It shouldn't be too difficult to call a special referendum immediately after a new religion is founded. In terms of current game mechanics, that would mean after lord builds a temple, a vote commences to determine who the #1 is. The lord doesn't lose his lordship either, so no temporary lords there. If he steps down voluntarily then that almost settles the matter completely that he was only interested in making a religion.

It doesn't have to be by vote, I suppose. We do have guilds and secret societies, maybe religion, when formed, can take two routes? But I don't know about that, it sounds like it's growing a bit more complex. I mean, all our rulers are voted in under normal circumstances, in all government systems.

Hyral

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Re: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?
« Reply #80: April 08, 2011, 06:07:53 PM »
But if we're talking about a game-mechanic change, I think that less complex is better. It seems more difficult to alter the code of how religions are formed. In the current system, as far as the game cares, a religion only exists when the first temple is built. Everything else is fine among players, but the game's verdict is: Can you preach? Influence? Without making the first temple, the answer is no.

So where am I going with this? Well, on one hand, we can change the way religion works just to solve seemingly one problem, that of temporary lordships, which may or may not be as much of a problem as it sounds. I think that a more amenable solution would be to avoid making any large changes in how this system works, and modify the existing one by integrating another existing mechanic.

Well, yes, temporary lordships are the topic of this thread :] Less complex is usually better, true, and I was originally in support of just changing a bit of game text, but as fodder pointed out, that doesn't solve the issue of temporary lords, something I do consider a problem, but not the only problem with the way religions are started...

Quote
As I said before, there has been discussion in the past about replacing a #1 position in a religion when the player of said character has left the game. Darkanism was the religion in question. One of the suggestions was to hold referendum to vote in a new #1. I think that such a solution would be fairly simple and efficient. We already have the referendum in place, and from what I can see, it's pretty flexible. It shouldn't be too difficult to call a special referendum immediately after a new religion is founded. In terms of current game mechanics, that would mean after lord builds a temple, a vote commences to determine who the #1 is. The lord doesn't lose his lordship either, so no temporary lords there. If he steps down voluntarily then that almost settles the matter completely that he was only interested in making a religion.

I don't think anyone doubts that the temporary lords who form religions are only interested in making a religion, that's why they got the lordship and that's what makes it temporary. Finding a new leader through vote seems reasonable in a case of  the original leader disappearing, however, it seems a bizarre way to actually start a religion. Yes, mechanics-wise a religion only exists as long as it has a temple (both in forming and dissolving), but having a lord build a temple and then find a spiritual leader through vote? It's even more backwards than what we have already (build a temple, become a prophet). That's what I like about the proposed system, step one is become religious leader, step two is gather followers, and the last thing you do is build a temple, and then you're official. It's more complicated than a tweak, but it makes sense in a religious context, something forming a religion doesn't necessarily do now.

But, in the end, if it is decided that temporary lordships are okay, then we really would just need a text tweak u.u

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Re: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?
« Reply #81: April 08, 2011, 06:57:52 PM »
Sometimes what might make sense in real life doesn't translate well into games. In this case, maybe the emergence of a religious leader before establishment of a temple makes sense in real life and it might even work in-game. But in that case, there would need to be a set of new requirements to start one's own religion, which were mentioned already so I won't reiterate them.

As it already is, BM's religion system is unrealistic, and all the better I think because of that. However, my concern is more with dissuading questionable behavior (in this case, temporary lordships). My thought on the suggestion of a religious leader pre-temple is that anyone who is really intent on founding a religion will rush to fulfill the new requirements, then use his status as religious leader to gain a lordship to build a temple. This sounds perfectly legitimate, and probably would be.

However, just how different would it be from asking for lordship in order to found a religion? In the former case, a somewhat intangible counter of "faith" * would be used to support one's claim to a region. In the latter case it is the promise of a future establishment. In either case, the result is that the noble gets the lordship, and builds the temple.

Now, it doesn't have to happen that way. Since the suggestion here seems to be that the religious leader would hold #1 spot no matter what, then it shouldn't matter which lord builds the temple. This might reduce the number of people seeking lordships only to start a religion, but it would be hard to tell, as some people might still want to be the first to construct. And if the lordship isn't relinquished in the new suggested system, all the more reason.

*: Now I will go into the difficulties with a system that would function before the currently used system comes into play. What I mean, is, under the proposed system, which I will call pre-temple, some things might necessarily be different for fairness. In addition, I will support my claim that such a system would not drastically improve on what can be achieved under the current system. However, that only applies to the difficulty of successfully making use of the pre-temple system. I am not claiming that it might not be successful in discouraging temporary lordships more so than the current system. I am claiming that the idea on its own does not appear to justify its inclusion.

In pre-temple organization, I do not think that it should be allowed for the religion to gain any peasant followers. On one hand, that would be unfair to those religions that actually established a temple, perhaps several. They should be rewarded for having the funding to spread their faith. In addition, allowing pre-temple religions to have followers among the population is a convenient way to thwart an enemy religion. Let's say that the Theocracy of Evil is preaching Evilism and the Kingdom of Good doesn't like how several regions they took from Evil are still 100% followers of Evilism. To counteract this, many nobles of Good suddenly have epiphanies, each of them gathering the bare minimum for their religions to have sway in a region. Then the many facets of Good's various religions suddenly dilute the minds of the former Evilists, causing the Theocracy suddenly to lose influence.

Ok, so let's say that we don't allow any faith recognized by the game. Let's keep it strictly among the nobles who are starting it. First, how would the organization go, if any? Would the "founder" have options unavailable to others? If so, that provides a lot of incentive to be the founder, especially if the requirements aren't that hard. And should it be hard? Someone who is prepared to become a priest wouldn't have the highest H/P, nor that much gold, nor that much skill, usually. Maybe some do fit those requirements, but what about the soft-spoken, gentle, ascetic, prophet? The current system has the flexibility to allow for any type of prophet. It simply depends on the player to actually provide the text to make that clear.

Now, let's talk about the viability of the pre-temple system. Under the current religious system, I believe that a religion is considered no longer in existence by the game once the last temple falls. That, of course, does not stop the characters from holding onto the ideas. Under the pre-religion system, when, if ever, would the pre-temple religion "die"? In addition, would it be fully converted into the current religion system once a temple is established?

I think that if the pre-temple religion was not converted fully into the current religion system, then that means even after the last temple falls, the religion would not suffer as much because they can just start over again so long as the nucleus of "prophet" and a certain number of noble followers remain. If that is not the case, then let's look at another aspect. How would one leave this pre-temple religion? I assume that there are other nobles in the pre-temple religion. If not, then there is nothing stopping pretty much anyone from starting his/her own pre-temple religion and having it form simply by having any lord build the temple. But then, if a lord has to build the temple, that means either the prophet must be a lord, or at least one other noble has to be capable of joining the pre-temple religion.

In the former case, we get into the same deal about temporary lordships, meaning the prophet seeks to gain lordship for the primary reason of building a temple, with secondary, if any, intentions to take care of the region. Sure, one can say that in the pre-temple case there already exists a "faith" and this provides support for the prophet's position, but even in the current system, the future founder can use the guarantee of a temple as his support. In both cases, the reasons are simply there to secure a lordship.

But let's go first to the other part about membership, in which other nobles can join pre-temple. Then the question remains, how does one leave? Can he leave anytime, anywhere? Currently religions do not allow anyone to leave while indebted. I cannot say what the current system intended with that, but I will say that there should be some incentive to motivate nobles to think very carefully about which pre-temple religion to join before joining, because there shouldn't be a high changeover rate of pre-temple faiths. And then, in that case, post-temple, what would be the ranks and statuses of those pre-temple members? Surely they deserve something for sticking by the prophet for so long? But do we put all of them into one rank? Or somehow select them? Or maybe, like it is now, the #1 rank decides? In any case, it would appear to make sense if those disciples automatically became part of the religion. After all, they didn't follow the prophet all that way just to remain pagans once the temple was established. Then they would need to automatically take a certain spot, in which case, shall they go Aspirant, Member, or Senior?

Let's recap. I think that the pre-temple suggestion needs to be defined more attentively to account for many more complexities that will inevitably arise due to the attempted introduction of a new system to one that already exists. While some of the points were indeed addressed already, I have decided to explore them more so that the reasons those aspects may be valid and the ways that they had already been "solved" are more clear. I believe that this system would bring new difficulties that must first be made into a form that would both fix the supposed temporary lordship problems, and at the same time, avoid creating any new problems.

Hyral

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Re: Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?
« Reply #82: April 09, 2011, 01:16:34 AM »
You brought up a lot of points, so I'm just going to try to reply to them one by one...

-Pre-temple religions will not gain peasant followers as they have no priests or temples to convert them with (do temples even convert or do they just maintain, I don't recall) . It wouldn't be possible to use a pre-temple religion to sway the populace.

 -Organization of pre-temple religion: There's the 'founder' and there are the converts, that's it. It needn't be ranked, titled, or complicated. Established-religion is when things can get complicated, pre-temple would be simple and mostly RPed. The only option available to the founder is "invite" and it may as well just be available to him (this is his project after all, he should do the work). The only incentive he should have is to see his religion established. The converts needn't have any special options.

-Requirements: There needs to be some minimum, even switching to courtier has requirements. What are the current requirements for lordship? If those stats are good enough to start a religion now, they'll be fine under a new system. I don't know what you mean about limiting the way a player plays his prophet? There are requirements in the current system and as you said, the current system doesn't limit the ways a prophet can portray himself.

-Pre-temple religion dies when the last person leaves, as in, the founder. Founders can leave their religions now, so that shouldn't be a problem. If successful, the pre-temple would convert over to an established religion and the structure of the pre-temple need not be maintained.

-Established religion falls due to lack of temple: If the prophet and his core followers are still around, why the heck did they let the last temple fall? They should have to start from scratch if they let that happen.

-Other nobles in pre-temple: One of the requirements for a pre-temple to become established would be gathering some number of noble followers, previously mentioned as converts (again, let's say ten). It's not a matter of can, you *must* have noble followers in your pre-temple. At least one of whom should be a lord, since you are wanting to build a temple.

Since there are so many options (so many lords), there is no reason for it to be okay for a would-be prophet to seek a temporary lordship. Right now, the *only* way to start a religion is for *you* to be a lord, so the only way to avoid a temporary appointment is to already be a lord when you get the idea, and that doesn't seem to be the case most of the time. Because there is only one option, it's unfair to say 'no temporary lordships', but under a new system there would be lots of options, and completely fair to crack down on temporary appointments.

-Leaving pre-temple religion: Click "leave". No coffers (if you want to raise gold, keep it on hand for when you're official), so no debt. It's just as easy to leave a religion now, and I believe that's intentional. I, too, would prefer people take their choice of religion more seriously, but if Tom wants fluidity then fluidity there shall be.

-Moving over to an established-religion: Keep it simple. Everyone in pre-temple move to established-religion. Founder is Founder, everyone else from pre-temple is Member (Senior would be interesting, but I think you can only have a certain percentage of members as Senior, and that's a good feature, in my opinion). The Founder can mess with the ranks as he pleases afterward.

The nature of pre-temple (in my envisioning of it, I imagine you guys have your own thoughts on Perth's suggestion) is to be mechanically simple. No bells or whistles, just get people interested and get your religion formed.