Council Power

[Igelfeld]

So what position within the council, (King, Judge, Banker, General) do you think holds the most actual power. I am thinking here about game mechanics and such, and from what I understand here are the basic abilities of the different positions:

The King dominates exterior diplomacy, can change the government workings, and exile nobles.

The Judge controls the prison, can torture and steal from nobles in prison, ban nobles, and set fines.

The Banker controls taxes and tax distribution, can steal gold from regions, and see the exact food reports.

The General can move militia, and I don't know what else.

[DoctorHarte]

Ruler. No doubt about it, unless they are inactive or have no support by the nobility.

[Iltaran]

Ruler and Judge are pretty hard to split. While the Ruler controls who you go to war with, the Judge can throw anyone they dislike out of the realm. The Banker's ability to manipulate the finances can be useful, but using it will seriously annoy the Lords. Poor old Generals have no real power in gameplay mechanic terms.

[jaune]

All council members are only as powerfull as they are liked by the realm.

General who has respect of his army, is very powerfull. Every council member can be dumbed down from its position pretty quickly if realm nobles arent happy with him.

If judge starts to kick out people and realm doesnt like it, he cant kick very many before he dumbed down. Ruler doesnt have actual tools much, his power is completly power gained through dukes and rest of his council. But same goes pretty much with every council member.

Ruler can declare war, but if he doesnt have support from his general, army will not move... and if general dont have support of lords, he wont have army to command etc.

[Jeckyl]

Depends from realm to realm I'd say. In a realm faced with war right left and center, the General holds the most influence. I've been in a realm in fact where the General have held successful rebellion - twice. If the Banker is played right, he could rake in the most money, especially if he is also a Duke. The Judge too could be the most powerful, depending on the circumstances. If your realm happens to take a lot of prisoners, then he could get very rich, and acquire a lot of uniques.

[Solari]

Ruler and Judge are pretty hard to split. While the Ruler controls who you go to war with, the Judge can throw anyone they dislike out of the realm. The Banker's ability to manipulate the finances can be useful, but using it will seriously annoy the Lords. Poor old Generals have no real power in gameplay mechanic terms.

Generals are largely irrelevant these days, it's true.  All hail the Marshals.

[LilWolf]

Generals are largely irrelevant these days, it's true.  All hail the Marshals.

And soon the rulers will be too. All hail the diplomats and ambassadors.

Time to order those flowers for the council positions graves.

[Igelfeld]

As far as actual game mechanics, I would have to say that the ability to appoint dukes (if this an ability of the ruler) is probably a huge determinant in shaping the realm, But that ability is not utilized terribly often.  So in my mind it kind of falls to the banker and the judge.

[Bedwyr]

Ruler controls appointments, government system, and has more control over diplomacy than anyone else.  Ruler can also muck with taxes a bit.  Mechanics wise, that's about it.  However, Rulers can be contacted by anyone on the island, which is very handy (though not as important now with the new contact system), and control of message groups as well as innate respect to the position is very, very helpful in a less tangible sense.

General has only the powers he can take for himself, and assigning/disbanding militia.  Handy for rebellions, but not much else.

Banker has control over realm taxes (and the ability to muck with the books), which can put a lot of gold in his pocket, but usually only once or a very small amount, relatively speaking, over time.

Judge has fines/bans/lifting of bans/control over the prisons, which adds up to a lot over time.

I'd say Ruler has the edge right now because of the absolute control over the government system, Ambassadors, and appointments to duchies, Judge second, Banker third, General fourth.  Mechanics-wise only, of course.

Beyond that, Ruler has by far the best position in a less tangible sense.  On the other hand, all of these pale in comparison to the power of a non-capital Duke, especially if that Duke has a Council position besides.

[Indirik]

It really depends on what your considering as power. You talked about "actual" power, but then go on to talk about game-mechanic shiny-button power. In terms of IC character power, any council position can have as much power as they can grab. Rulers and judges tend to have the most, if they want it. As far as shiny-clicky-button powers, I'd say right now, that belongs to judges. Bans and fines are extremely powerful. Yes, rulers have diplomacy powers, but how much actual effect they can have depends on other people's reactions to them.

[Bedwyr]

Bans/fines/etc trump diplomacy, but they don't trump the Ruler being able to mold the government and election/appointment systems however desired.

[Vellos]

I would say rulers are most powerful, though I have played high-powered bankers several times now.

[vonGenf]

The one that people listen to is the most powerful. It's all there is to it, really. You need people to follow your lead.

[Sacha]

Indeed... I managed to organize a revolution without even being in the target realm anymore, simply because I had a lot of support amongst the nobility. You can have no titles or mechanics powers and still be the most powerful noble in the realm. Likewise you can have a bunch of positions and be almost powerless, when the realm as a whole doesn't like you.

[Stue (DC)]

All council members are only as powerfull as they are liked by the realm.

(...)

As I pointed at many times before, depriving formal titles from real power deprives game of exciting actions. When all title holders can be removed by more than one means, they should have power (and, absurdly, the only title which holds realm power -non-council title -  is untouchable), so the balance would exist between their power and power of those who dislike them. Quarrels about power would create much of internal political frictions and indirectly create foreign frictions too in many ways I will describe later.

Currently the necessity that council needs to be liked by most of realm create some sort of liberal democracy that has almost nothing to do with medieval atmosphere - fine people doing fine thing, all respect each other, ideal for real life, terrible for the game.

Even the only example of "noble democracy" that of medieval England - balance was fragile all the time, power abuses attempts frequent. Once harmony was reached, middle age was already over... Without power there are no abuses, strong characters, strong stories, nothing.

With mechanics which forces ruler to be some sort "prime minister of minority government" the most frequently we have two scenarios:

1- everybody does his own business, no any real cohesion within realm exist. Besides putting gold in pockets almost nothing happens as no-one can move something to happen
2- over time council, or ruler, created reign of very submissive followers. This mostly works in some very old realms who had luck to never be exposed to some more serious test of strength. Apathy is dominant feeling. Leaders will take care to never disturb customary submissiveness by any new initiative, being fully aware that they cannot gain absolutely nothing, but they will likely lose everything but introducing change in fragile balance of their informal power.

All described i caused by game mechanics. It is like mechanics wants so impose consensus as the only way of realm society's functioning. Together with the mention fact that success in achieving such consensus means boring idyll, it also derogates many  founding stones of medieval values - as it was nicely described in some Wiki articles, nobles lived and died for formal title, that meant everything for them, that way their main objective in life and motive which moved things forward. How can that work if titles are apparently empty...