Council Power

[Shenron]

I believe I proposed this somewhere else.

Instead of the realm imposing "ducal taxes," it can impose a tax directly on the income of cities and strongholds. That incentivizes the use of ducal taxes by dukes to collect moneys from rurals, in order to protect their own incomes.

I know many people have mentioned this before but I suppose it's worth it but we'd need to find a way to make sure one Duke can't just "put up" with the direct tax and therefore attract more lords to his duchy.

[Carna]

Y'see, that's what gets me. Why would anyone be opposed to a bit of friendly poaching of Lords and Ladies? I think that's a far better reason for civil war than religion (the #1 cause/influence of a lot of rebellions) since there's nothing to say that Lords shouldn't change their allegiance if their Dukes can't keep it. Dukes are the most powerful and secure positions in the game, so just sitting there amassing wealth and never raising your head above your walls won't lead to an army beating all those militia you have stacked up, the Lords and Ladies will just change their alliegence to a different, more proactive Duke. If you're proactive, then you can easily take offense to the actions of any wayward Lords and seek to punish them suitably. If you're sitting back, the other Duke might contend that and you won't have the support. Frankly, I see the ability for Lords to flock to someone who's paying his taxes to the realm rather than rally behind someone who pushes away from the realm over what should be between 50-100 gold. Nida could have paid either without any real bother, which would lead me to suspect that only the truly wartorn city or one supporting far more knights than it should would be pressed by this.

For a Republic, the Prime Minister or equivalent title needs financial support to do with as he or she likes not because it'll be good for any particular war effort or the likes, but because it adds a lot to a game and gives a lot of less measurable advantages. For instance, unique items from adventurers. No bad idea for a ruler to buy it and have it delivered to an allied ruler as a gift. Or one of the cities in the Kingdom is starving, so the King purchases feasts worth of food to send to the beleaguered city. Or hosting a tournament without the need for Ducal financial support or stingy prizes. Even if Rulers are to be figureheads, to whom all internal and all external look to for the direction being taken by a realm, some proper spending money for the position is needed because it can add a lot of prestige for your realm and secure the less tangible rewards that brings.

City taxes. Why not? Cities can, without feeling the pain too much, take a hit of fifty to a hundred gold per week. Your realm has four Duchies, that makes two to four hundred gold a week. Three weeks and you have a not entirely spectacular tournament saved up for. Better than the none that are taking place now. The question then comes, does this new tax go to the realm purse or does it go directly to the Ruler who can spread it or save it as he/she wishes? Obvious answer would be to the realm, which might offer a bit more fun to any banker daring enough to make bold moves with the tax. A good ally for any ruler.

More random thoughts for the night. C'mon sunrise.

Finton.

[Vellos]

The question then comes, does this new tax go to the realm purse or does it go directly to the Ruler who can spread it or save it as he/she wishes? Obvious answer would be to the realm, which might offer a bit more fun to any banker daring enough to make bold moves with the tax. A good ally for any ruler.

I would imagine the tax would flow to realm coffers. Which, as you said, would restore some more power to the banker, who presently is semi-useless in terms of buttons.

I know many people have mentioned this before but I suppose it's worth it but we'd need to find a way to make sure one Duke can't just "put up" with the direct tax and therefore attract more lords to his duchy.

No, that's fine. It's no problem if a duchy decides to "take it." It'll just transfer power away from dukes to the council. If the dukes decide to tax rurals, it will transfer power from rurals to the council (somewhat, but more diluted than the city-->council power shift).

My main worry is that most councils would be too timid to levy the tax. One thing that could do it would be:

Positive Reinforcement: Kind of like how, in a monarchy, a ruler's presence boosts region stats– rulers could be supplied with an "Investment" option that comes from their personal cash-on-hand that ups morale/loyalty. This would need to have limitations on frequency, maybe no more than once a week.

Negative Reinforcement: Make council positions have costs. Got a ruler? Well, he has to maintain such a large staff... he has a "tax penalty" of 35 gold (maybe X Gold penalty per region of the realm?). Same for banker, general, judge... this means that council positions have a legitimate reason to demand that cities pay taxes.

Combination of positive effects of rich rulers and costs to council positions would greatly incentivize the deployment of centralized taxes on cities. This would in turn incentivize the deployment of ducal taxes on rural regions. As a reflection of different tax rates and different duchy sizes and city sizes and generalized productivity factors, dukes would be thrust into dynamic tax competition. Voila, we have strengthened the council, rebalanced the banker and ruler positions, encouraged the use of existing game features, added new intrigue possibilities, and done it all with what seems to me like a fairly simple solution.

[Chenier]

Negative Reinforcement: Make council positions have costs. Got a ruler? Well, he has to maintain such a large staff... he has a "tax penalty" of 35 gold (maybe X Gold penalty per region of the realm?). Same for banker, general, judge... this means that council positions have a legitimate reason to demand that cities pay taxes.

Force people to take away people's gold to... throw it out the window? I hate this idea. The game has way too much negative incentives as it is.

[Vellos]

Force people to take away people's gold to... throw it out the window? I hate this idea. The game has way too much negative incentives as it is.

Indeed. I generally don't like powerful negative incentives. Do you think that the positive incentive I mentioned would be sufficient to merit council members making the risky move of taxing dukes?

[LilWolf]

The realm has to be able to actually tax cities.  That would really be all we need.  Yes, Dukes could secede and the like, but most people won't support a Duke who secedes over a reasonable tax rate.

So, realm taxes dukes. The dukes then tax the already poor rural regions to make up the lost gold. The rural regions start perhaps asking gold for the food that flows to cities. Dukes raise taxes on rural regions again. In the end, all this was a pointless exercise of fiddling with numbers in a lot of places that probably still landed the poorest regions worse off than they were and added another layer of complexity on an already complex game.

[Shenron]

So, realm taxes dukes. The dukes then tax the already poor rural regions to make up the lost gold. The rural regions start perhaps asking gold for the food that flows to cities. Dukes raise taxes on rural regions again. In the end, all this was a pointless exercise of fiddling with numbers in a lot of places that probably still landed the poorest regions worse off than they were and added another layer of complexity on an already complex game.

While I see your point, lets not pretend we are trying to do this for nothing.

We want the council, particularly the ruler to have more power (especially in a monarchy.) You agree?

[Chenier]

So, realm taxes dukes. The dukes then tax the already poor rural regions to make up the lost gold. The rural regions start perhaps asking gold for the food that flows to cities. Dukes raise taxes on rural regions again. In the end, all this was a pointless exercise of fiddling with numbers in a lot of places that probably still landed the poorest regions worse off than they were and added another layer of complexity on an already complex game.

Perhaps, and if so that'S something I would totally want to avoid.

But for the time being, lords can just so easily switch duchies. Or sell their food to another city, even in other realms. In most cases, dukes have absolutely no power over lords.

[Vellos]

Perhaps, and if so that'S something I would totally want to avoid.

But for the time being, lords can just so easily switch duchies. Or sell their food to another city, even in other realms. In most cases, dukes have absolutely no power over lords.

Indeed, rural lords could (in at least some circumstances) change allegiance to a lower-tax duke.

Or, the "special tax" code could be implemented.

[De-Legro]

Perhaps, and if so that'S something I would totally want to avoid.

But for the time being, lords can just so easily switch duchies. Or sell their food to another city, even in other realms. In most cases, dukes have absolutely no power over lords.

Or we could allow Lords to declare their regions to be imperial and thus always have a way to avoid a Duchy that is imposing a heavy burden. Hell we could make imperial regions directly taxable by the ruler so they have a purpose beyond the current "region waiting to join a duchy".

[Chenier]

Or we could allow Lords to declare their regions to be imperial and thus always have a way to avoid a Duchy that is imposing a heavy burden. Hell we could make imperial regions directly taxable by the ruler so they have a purpose beyond the current "region waiting to join a duchy".

Making dukes all the more powerless towards lords.

[De-Legro]

Making dukes all the more powerless towards lords.

There are positive benefits to being in a Duchy though, at least in terms of the effectiveness of things like Buro and civil work.

[Chenier]

There are positive benefits to being in a Duchy though, at least in terms of the effectiveness of things like Buro and civil work.

So you join a duchy when your region gets whacked, and then return to being imperial when all is fine?

[De-Legro]

So you join a duchy when your region gets whacked, and then return to being imperial when all is fine?

Sure, unless the ruler was charging even worse taxes then the Dukes I guess. After all I can change Duchies at whim so long as I wait the 14 days.

[Shenron]

How about we give a nice whack to a lords honour (not prestige) for changing allegiance?