Author Topic: Kabrinskia Realm Merger  (Read 11707 times)

Naidraug

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 256
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #15: November 12, 2012, 06:52:58 PM »
The messages we have about this issue are:

Quote
Letter from Allison Kabrinski   (23 hours, 46 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (18 recipients)
If Brom doesnt remove the ban or if we dont protest him out of office I will join the Duchy to another realm to save my seat. Astrum and Dhara have said they would accept me.


I encourage you all to continue the protests
Allison Kabrinski
Duchess of the Maddening Star
Margravine of Golden Farrow
Priestess of Sanguis Astroism

and the one spoken about by Dante is:

Quote
Orders from Sergio Mozzoni   (33 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (46 recipients)
Nobles of Astrum, old and new,

Recent events have rejoined us under the banner of Astrum. It's a pleasure to meet our brothers and sisters again but this situation is only temporary. We should focus on preparing the secession of Golden Farrow and its duchy, once the political situation is clear and all parties agree.
Sergio Mozzoni
Vasilif of Astrum
Duke of Eidulb
Margrave of Eidulb

Hope this helps. This shows that Allison had already discussed this with them.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 06:54:41 PM by Naidraug »
Stryfe Family: Tristan - Heorot/ Scherzer - Nothoi / Finan - Caelum / Arya - Farronite Republic

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #16: November 12, 2012, 06:55:47 PM »
Yes, that is the public message Sergio sent. The prior one I posted, where Sergio says that he did not give permission for her to bring her lands over, was in the ruler's private council.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

dustole

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #17: November 12, 2012, 07:36:18 PM »
Astrum told me no and I did anyway.
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Penchant

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3121
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #18: November 12, 2012, 11:25:21 PM »
The messages we have about this issue are:

and the one spoken about by Dante is:

Hope this helps. This shows that Allison had already discussed this with them.
From a ruler stand point, you want to make everything sound planned as it sounds bad to say it wasn't, so he was replying IC not with the truth, as he was merely doing IC propaganda.

Also, I would like to suggest that on the secession page it states this bug in bold, red, and made big so that those who think about seceding know about this people can't say I didn't know. Ban previously said that how is the forum not the best place to announce this, as the certain people like to point out at times, those on the forum are the minority, not the majority. Important announcements should be made on the game, be it through the announcements, a short OOC message sent to everyone, or a message  put on the page, in the game is where the important announcements should be made.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 11:33:12 PM by Penchant »

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #19: November 13, 2012, 12:16:23 AM »
I really think it's the fault of the system, as it relies on people being in-tune with what's on the forums in order for people to realize something is a bug and not normal. IF there had been a general announcement on battlemaster regarding the first magistrate case, this wouldn't have happened.

I agree.

Why on earth is this even possible? To the layman not frequenting the forums, one would have seen others do it without anything to suggest it wasn't ok.

While ignorance of the law is not an excuse, and that an experienced player as himself really ought to know better, I really do feel like this should have been made impossible a long time ago.

BardicNerd

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 331
  • Evans Family
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #20: November 13, 2012, 12:28:36 AM »
Is it really a realm merger if the ruler of Kabrinska didn't have any say in it?  It seems like it's more a case of a duke taking their duchy away without the permission of the rest of the realm . . . now, it's possibly exploitation of a bug that they could do so, but that's not actually a merger in the sense that we've been told is Bad.

Dante Silverfire

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1786
  • Merlin (AT), Brom(DWI), Proslyn(DWI)
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #21: November 13, 2012, 12:44:19 AM »
Is it really a realm merger if the ruler of Kabrinska didn't have any say in it?  It seems like it's more a case of a duke taking their duchy away without the permission of the rest of the realm . . . now, it's possibly exploitation of a bug that they could do so, but that's not actually a merger in the sense that we've been told is Bad.

What is the definition of realm merger other than:

1. All nobles of realm A join realm B.
2. All regions of realm A join realm B.
3. Aside from government positions, all nobles from realm A retain all of their titles.
"This is the face of the man who has worked long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them."

Anaris

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8491
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #22: November 13, 2012, 12:46:41 AM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

fodder

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #23: November 13, 2012, 01:05:38 AM »
a quick band-aid would be an announcement post.

something like

"duchy flipping is a bit buggy atm. you are not meant to be able to flip the last duchy. don't do it."

the issue is not whether it's a merger, that is sort of irrelevant. the person who flipped the duchy is ultimately responsible for flipping a duchy that isn't meant to be flippable.
firefox

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #24: November 13, 2012, 01:17:58 AM »
As I'm quite sure was mentioned in the earlier threads on this subject:

It was impossible. Then we rewrote the code that handles this stuff from scratch due to a completely new hierarchy system and the Doctrine transition. This check was lost in translation somehow.

Since the earlier instances, the dev team has not had the time and energy to dive into this code and fix the bug.

If you're still sore about it, go become a PHP super-whiz so you can join the dev team and fix every single bug in BattleMaster before any player could possibly find it. Based on your tone in this and many other posts, I'm quite sure you're just super-mega-awesome enough to do that in no time flat, right?

If there really isn't time to fix it, then a band-aid solution of letting everyone who saw the events know it wasn't okay would be in order. Instead, everyone saw the Solaria merger, and no visible consequences came out of it for those who don't follow the magistrates' subforum.

egamma

  • Guest
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #25: November 13, 2012, 01:37:21 AM »
The messages we have about this issue are:
Letter from Allison Kabrinski   (23 hours, 46 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (18 recipients)
If Brom doesnt remove the ban or if we dont protest him out of office I will join the Duchy to another realm to save my seat. Astrum and Dhara have said they would accept me.


I encourage you all to continue the protests
Allison Kabrinski
Duchess of the Maddening Star
Margravine of Golden Farrow
Priestess of Sanguis Astroism

As an aside, D'Hara's ruler (after myself and other lords pointed out the rule violation) told Allison she could not join D'Hara. I'm not sure if our ruler pointed out the rule violation or if he kept his communication IC.

dustole

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #26: November 13, 2012, 01:51:39 AM »
Neither Astrum or D'Hara said yes.  Astrum said I could join but not my regions.  D'Hara asked for time to think about it.   The Judge "asked me to leave".   My letter was propaganda. 
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

House Talratheon

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #27: November 13, 2012, 04:26:24 AM »
What is the definition of realm merger other than:

1. All nobles of realm A join realm B.
2. All regions of realm A join realm B.
3. Aside from government positions, all nobles from realm A retain all of their titles.

Using this argument, only "friendly realm mergers" are unallowed the realm council stupidly chose to ban the last Duke/Duchess of their realm and instead of the Duke/Duchess taking it lying down she chose to take her duchy with her. None of those falls under "friendly" terms, apparently it was done in protest to her ban and in spite of the judge and King that banned her, nothing about this says "friendly".

If the King and Judge didn't want this to happen .. then they shouldn't have attempted to ban a Duchess/Duke they hold considerable power, it's why they hold power to appoint Regional Lords.

  • Should this have been able to happen? No.
  • Should it have been announced in some form, in game until the issue was addressed? Yes.
  • Was it? No.

Lets note that none of the three above are fault of the accused.

In Closing was there a merger? Yes, a merger of one duchy moving into another realm. However this was done on unfriendly terms and not in violation of the official rules of "No FRIENDLY mergers" However technically by game mechanics should not have been possible. But we aren't arguing the semantics of game mechanics rather than if the accused party is guilty of violating a rule of the game. There was a civil internal strife in her previous kingdom that attempted to ban her in which turn she'd lose her Ducal seat, position as Margravine and instead of losing it all preferred to simply move her duchy away.

So If I was to make an opinion based on this, I'd say she isn't guilty however the dev. team should work on factors to prevent this from happening in the future.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:31:44 AM by House Talratheon »

Draco Tanos

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
    • Nova Roma
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #28: November 13, 2012, 04:52:04 AM »
Common sense also dictates that one cannot, or should not be able to, merge an entire realm as Duke. 

It is well known that such actions were prohibited by code before they rewrote it in the new language. 

Either way, the player should have realized that it seemed strange and at least ASKED someone before hand.

Velax

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • House de Vere
    • View Profile
Re: Kabrinskia Realm Merger
« Reply #29: November 13, 2012, 04:54:59 AM »
By Tom's own definition in the other Magistrates case, this is not a realm merger, friendly or otherwise:

A "friendly realm merger" does not require a precise definition of every word. What I intend by those words is that I don't want realm A and realm B to sit together and say "hey, as one realm we would have better game mechanics on our side" or whatever, and then simply join up.

What happened here was NOT the scenario I see as a "friendly realm merger", because it was not an agreed act of cooperation between two parties. You can discuss the "friendly" part if you want, but there wasn't a merger. Whatever you call it, and it sure is a strange event, but it's not the event I ruled disallowed.

Certainly seems as if both sides did not sit down and say that they should merge because the game mechanics would then favour them.

This case should have been brought forward on the basis of it being a bug exploit, not a breaking of the realm merging rule. But you would need to prove that dustole knew it was a bug, despite there being no in-game announcement that it was. I would argue that this is not an obvious exploit - in the way that getting infinite family gold is, for example, or falsely reporting sensitive message as vulgar in the hopes that another realm will read and act on them - and people should not be necessarily expected to know it is a bug. As I said in another thread, if this bug won't be fixed quickly, then there needs to be a message put on the Secession page for dukes.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:56:59 AM by Velax »