Author Topic: Re: This should not happen  (Read 2867 times)

pcw27

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Re: This should not happen
« Topic Start: December 18, 2012, 08:05:15 PM »
I'm sorry this is just ridiculous. The wiki directly contradicts the reality of the rules. I don't buy the semantic nonsense that "lamenting" means complaining over and over again ad infinitem. What kind of backwards reasoning is it that the best solution to this is to leave it completely inaccurate so it has to be clarified over and over again wasting everyone's time and making experience players afraid to do something they're allowed to do because they don't want to get flagged.

Indirik

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Re: Re: This should not happen
« Reply #1: December 18, 2012, 10:01:11 PM »
I've pretty much stopped following this topic... however, if you think that the wiki needs updating, then please quote the exact page, the paragraph you think needs changed, and what you think it should say. Feel free to head over to the Wiki board and do it there, rather than this already OT thread.
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pcw27

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #2: December 19, 2012, 06:53:34 AM »
The page is locked so I can't edit it myself.

Here's my suggestion:

Strike through mean's remove, bold means ad.

How to Act

How should someone in a position of power treat these rights? By acknowledging and moving on. Almost all long-winded texts are just sophisticated attempts to circumvent them. The basic rule is: Just shut up and stay 100 feet away from any and all inalienable rights, no matter how well-meaning you are. If you're thinking of doing anything that can remotely be construed as discouraging a player or group of players from exercising their inalienable rights, don't do it. Some of the worst events of both human history and in BattleMaster were done by people with good intentions.

If there's a tournament, don't point out how important it is not to go - just shut up. If you would like more traders in your realm, mention to the realm what a fine profession trading is and how great it is to travel around earning gold. Don't lament to the realm and don't make threats or imply threats if you don't get your way. Come up with a solution, that's your job as ruler or banker.

Indirik

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #3: December 19, 2012, 02:49:28 PM »
Your second paragraph looks OK.

To me, it doesn't look like your first paragraph changes are any clearer than the original version. This may be a situation where one way of saying something is clear to you, and a different way is clearer for someone else.
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Penchant

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #4: December 19, 2012, 10:48:34 PM »
The first adding in paragraph two should be changed a bit. Perhaps instead say, "mention the benefits of being a trader or make benefits. "

Eldargard

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #5: December 20, 2012, 12:02:22 PM »
The second paragraph still does not sound at all like what was described as OK on the forums. This may be a little closer:

If there's a tournament, don't point out how important it is not to go - just shut up. If you would like more traders in your realm or more infantry in the army, go right ahead and make the need known - as long as the message is to the realm, army, guild or religion as a whole and no one is singled out by the message. Don't make threats or imply threats if you don't get your way. Come up with a solution, like offering  in character incentives, that's your job as ruler or banker or general or marshal or whatever.

I also wonder why it is OK to incentive certain classes but not OK to provide an incentive to those who stay away from a tournament.

Why is this OK:

"Dear Realm, We need more Diplomats. Anyone who chooses to become a Diplomat will receive 200 bonds from me personally."

And this is not:

"Dear Realm, We need people here to defend out borders. I know there is a tournament but I will personally pay everyone who stays behind 100 gold."

Why???

Penchant

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Re: Re: This should not happen
« Reply #6: December 21, 2012, 04:25:09 AM »
I really like Unwin's suggestion for the second paragraph.

Indirik

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #7: December 21, 2012, 04:44:36 AM »
@Unwin: I would say the difference is this: the first example is not asking someone to forego their IR. They can still choose their class and comply with your request. Your second example requires the noble to surrender their IR of attending the tournament in order to comply.
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Chenier

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #8: December 21, 2012, 04:45:51 AM »
The second paragraph still does not sound at all like what was described as OK on the forums. This may be a little closer:

If there's a tournament, don't point out how important it is not to go - just shut up. If you would like more traders in your realm or more infantry in the army, go right ahead and make the need known - as long as the message is to the realm, army, guild or religion as a whole and no one is singled out by the message. Don't make threats or imply threats if you don't get your way. Come up with a solution, like offering  in character incentives, that's your job as ruler or banker or general or marshal or whatever.

I also wonder why it is OK to incentive certain classes but not OK to provide an incentive to those who stay away from a tournament.

Why is this OK:

"Dear Realm, We need more Diplomats. Anyone who chooses to become a Diplomat will receive 200 bonds from me personally."

And this is not:

"Dear Realm, We need people here to defend out borders. I know there is a tournament but I will personally pay everyone who stays behind 100 gold."

Why???

I would say because non-diplomats help the realm efforts, whereas tournament attendees contribute very little (unless they win).

The first is therefore a reward for people who agree to become more useful, whereas the other is a reward for those who cease playing around. At least, that's how they are likely to be interpreted.

That's also partially due to the fact that the first request targets the very large majority of the realm who aren't diplomats, whereas the second targets a much smaller portion of the realm (attendees).

egamma

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #9: December 21, 2012, 07:20:46 AM »
I don't see the difference between offering someone 500 gold to become an infiltrator, and offering someone 500 gold to not attend a tournament. Neither one is a punishment.

Indirik

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #10: December 21, 2012, 02:13:57 PM »
It is a penalty to someone for exercising their inalienable right.

"Everyone gets 100 gold. Except for you 5 people who exercised your inalienable right to go to a tournament. You people don't get anything. Because you're not team players. You suck."
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egamma

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #11: December 21, 2012, 02:52:47 PM »
"Everyone gets 100 gold. Except for you 5 people who exercised your inalienable right to go to not become infiltrators. You people don't get anything. Because you're not team players. You suck."

Tom

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #12: December 21, 2012, 03:16:23 PM »
I don't see the difference between offering someone 500 gold to become an infiltrator, and offering someone 500 gold to not attend a tournament. Neither one is a punishment.

That's an interesting twist. I actually tend to say that is not a violation, because by offering someone something of value you do, in fact, recognize that he has every right to do as he pleases.

Don't quote me on that just yet, I'm not 100% sure, but that's what I'm thinking right this moment.

Anaris

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #13: December 21, 2012, 03:18:07 PM »
I think one can make certain assumptions about relative probabilities.

It's not that unlikely for all but 5 people out of a reasonable-sized realm to stay home from a tournament.

It is highly unlikely for all but 5 people out of a reasonable-sized realm to become infiltrators.

In any case, I agree with Indirik: whatever the analogies you want to use, rewarding people for staying home from tournaments is qualitatively different from rewarding people for changing to a specific class. I would say that there are various reasons for this, including the aforementioned purely quantitative aspect, but also the fact that the reason there's a tournament IR in the first place is to allow and encourage people, especially newbies, to get out beyond the borders of their own realm in a non-combat setting.
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Chenier

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Re: This should not happen
« Reply #14: December 21, 2012, 05:06:00 PM »
"Everyone gets 100 gold. Except for you 5 people who exercised your inalienable right to go to not become infiltrators. You people don't get anything. Because you're not team players. You suck."

The unlikeliness of this scenario is what makes the difference. As I was saying before, and Anaris stated later, the odds of everyone but 5 people switching to the infiltrator class is extremely unlikely. But again, as I said again, if your realm already has all but infils save for 5 people, then it's not the same context at all.

It's basic psychology. If you are directly asked by someone to do something, even as a favor, you feel a lot worse for not doing it than if you are i a room full of people and being collectively asked to do the same thing. It's all about making sure that players don't feel any pressure to forego their IR.

Tom may eventually rule that as long as its done with incentives instead of threats, it's always fine. But for the meanwhile, that's not how I would rule in a magistrate case. I'd rule by the level of pressure exerted upon the individual into foregoing his IR. Because in my book, you can make people agree to ceding something in exchange for something else, without truly being happy about the deal. Someone could take the gold more to make you happy than because they want to or because they see the prize as being worth it.