Author Topic: Accusations of abuse and general harassment  (Read 23684 times)

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Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Topic Start: December 21, 2012, 03:09:17 PM »
Summary:Accusations of abuse and general harassment
Violation:Fair play
World:Atamara
Complainer:Aaron Champion
About:Enri

Full Complaint Text:
This is so stupid that I'm angry it even needs to be done. Since joining Caligan Empire, I've been on the receiving end of public OOC accusations of spying and private accusations of abuse and unsportsmanlike behavior from a single individual. Contrary to all evidence, he continues to persist in poisoning the atmosphere of a realm against me that I specifically joined for its team-friendly vibe. I don't really care that he's deeply misguided. I care that he's pressing this matter publicly, privately, IC and OOC, and I'd like it to stop. Asking him apparently doesn't work, so here we are. Below is the full correspondence between us. If a ruling on this specific issue is found to be unwarranted, then I ask the Magistrates to consider opining on what Fair Play means in general. Thanks.


   


      Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (8 days, 15 hours ago)

      Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)

      Always said I was going to create a character here some day. Well, now you're stuck with me. My condolences.

      Aaron Champion


      ----


      Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (8 days, 7 hours ago)

      Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)

      Well well well, the Great House Solari came to spy on us in person! This is quite an honor! Normally we'd qualify for a minor retainer at most!


      I'm watching you. *stares* -|~~ -|~~ -|~~


      (Those are supposed to be daggers by the way.)


      ----


      Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (8 days ago)

      (Personal message to Enri Kinsey)

      You may not know this, but I really have been wanting to play on the same "team" as you for awhile. I appreciate your command style and thorough planning. I really did apply much of what I gleaned from Enri's strategizing and orders in Thalmarkin. I'm looking forward to this!


      ----


      Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (7 days, 5 hours ago)

      I have good reason to suspect that you recruited new players into the game just so that you could spy on CE. That's not against the rules, but in my humble opinion that is not very sporting.


      ----


      Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (6 days, 23 hours ago)

      (Personal message to Enri Kinsey)

      I'm afraid that's simply not true, but I'd be happy to tell you exactly how I was able to learn so much.


      ----


      Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (6 days, 7 hours ago)

      Allow me to rephrase: You picked new players who recently joined the game, and bribed them into making characters in CE and spying on us. It's still not sporting.

      Yangfan Wang


      ----


      Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (4 days, 21 hours ago)

      (Personal message to Enri Kinsey)

      The bulk of intel came from characters of good standing in the realm. Else how would Enri's deliberations with the marshals have been obtained? I can appreciate your point of view, and I've come to agree with parts of it. That's why I don't bother with spying, and haven't since leaving Carelia. Despite what you might think, and certainly despite what your character in D'Hara thinks. It's time-consuming and unfair to others. But sporting? Come on. We're both competitive, and have gone to great lengths for our "teams". You exploit an advantage where it can be found, particularly when you're so mismatched conventionally.


      ----


      Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (4 days, 14 hours ago)

      Yes, because CE and Carelia & Co. was so "mismatched" at the beginning of the war. Spying is a tool that you always deployed, not something that you reserved for desperate situations.


      There is a difference between competitiveness and bad sportsmanship. There is a difference between playing well and taking unfair advantages over others. There is a difference between obeying both the spirit and the letter of the rules, and skirting around the edges and rules-lawyering. Like, oh, say, claiming that you are not realm-merging because there was still that lone stronghold left out in the middle of nowhere, and then throwing its duke under the proverbial bus when he merged with a neighbor. Was it against the rules? Technically, no. Was it a dick move that would have made Machiavelli blush? Yes.


      This is supposed to be a friendly game. I find it sad and pathetic the lengths that some players, including Devs, will go to try to "win" unfairly. Sometimes they fall flat on their face anyways. I do get some schadenfreude from


Solari

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #1: December 21, 2012, 03:11:10 PM »
Correspondence was cut off. Here's the rest:

Quote
Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (4 days, 14 hours ago)
Yes, because CE and Carelia & Co. was so "mismatched" at the beginning of the war. Spying is a tool that you always deployed, not something that you reserved for desperate situations.

There is a difference between competitiveness and bad sportsmanship. There is a difference between playing well and taking unfair advantages over others. There is a difference between obeying both the spirit and the letter of the rules, and skirting around the edges and rules-lawyering. Like, oh, say, claiming that you are not realm-merging because there was still that lone stronghold left out in the middle of nowhere, and then throwing its duke under the proverbial bus when he merged with a neighbor. Was it against the rules? Technically, no. Was it a dick move that would have made Machiavelli blush? Yes.

This is supposed to be a friendly game. I find it sad and pathetic the lengths that some players, including Devs, will go to try to "win" unfairly. Sometimes they fall flat on their face anyways. I do get some schadenfreude from that.

"That's why I don't bother with spying, and haven't since leaving Carelia. Despite what you might think, and certainly despite what your character in D'Hara thinks."

... I have a theory about spying: You don't really need to gather intel using the old-fashioned ways anymore.  It makes you out of practice. You are a really bad liar, you know?

I'm not really interested in anything that you have to say at this point.
Yangfan Wang



Quote
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (4 days, 11 hours ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
I'm very sorry you feel the way you do. Your impression of who I am and how I play is wildly inaccurate, but I can respect your wishes. I joined CE to have fun in a team-centric realm. I'm sure you'll demonstrate the same sportsmanship you so easily accuse me of lacking by not allowing your OOC opinions to impact my IC experience. Hopefully, with time, you'll come to realize how silly you're being.


Quote
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (1 day, 1 hour ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
I'm happy to indulge you so that you never actually have to interact with me, but if you continue to abuse the social contract by acting out your silly, ill-informed OOC agenda against my character by condemning him to a purgatory of inactivity, I will escalate the matter, and you will lose badly. I cannot express strongly enough how wrong you are on every point. I came to CE to play on your team. You need to accept it and put on your big boy pants. Your choice.


Quote
Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (7 hours, 8 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (67 recipients)
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (17 hours, 46 minutes ago)
I'm happy to indulge you so that you never actually have to interact with me, but if you continue to abuse the social contract by acting out your silly, ill-informed OOC agenda against my character by condemning him to a purgatory of inactivity, I will escalate the matter, and you will lose badly. I cannot express strongly enough how wrong you are on every point. I came to CE to play on your team. You need to accept it and put on your big boy pants. Your choice.
Aaron Champion

I'm not sure that I understand. Enri gave Remi the same orders that he gave to Duke Celestial. Are you saying that the assignment is not befitting your newly minted knight, even though it's acceptable to a Duke? Is Remi too good to command an escort unit for his liege? I'm sorry, but some missions are boring yet necessary. If I wait around for volunteers, they'll never get done.

What is against the rules is threatening to "escalate the matter" in order to try to get your way. But you knew that.



Quote
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (23 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (67 recipients)
Would you really like your private OOC letters to me shared with the realm, Yangfan? Are you that stupid? Or would you prefer to go back to pretending like you have a solid IC reason for for harassing behavior?

I'm going to continue playing as though I'm welcome here. Part of a team. You could at least indulge this fantasy by practicing the "sportsmanship" that you lectured me about. Fair enough?


Quote
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (14 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (67 recipients)
For clarity's sake—and this is really the last thing I'm going to say OOC in public—the "escalation" that I mentioned and that the player of Enri refers to is this:

Request from Remi Solari   (1 day ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Enri Kinsey
Awaiting orders.

(OOC: I'll do this every day until you grow up, Yangfan.)

Letter from Remi Solari   (20 hours ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Enri Kinsey
Thank you, Your Grace. General Enri, do you in fact have other orders at this time?


Request from Remi Solari   (9 hours, 53 minutes ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
General Enri—

As I am ever early to rise, I wish to inquire about the latest orders in advance of sunrise.

I wasn't aware that asking for orders every turn was so threatening. Can we get back to playing a game now?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 06:14:02 AM by ^ban^ »

Solari

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #2: December 21, 2012, 03:39:15 PM »
All the stuff concerning the special assignment for Remi at the southern end of the realm by the General after being told to recruit and then assigned to a campaigning army.


Quote
Letter from Celestial Fury   (7 days, 23 hours ago)

Will you be choosing the path of the warrior? Let me know if you have an army in mind or I shall assign you to the FoEL by Nidan tradition.

The Lightning Griffins take in mostly Cavalry. The Est Sularus oth Mithas is based on one of the earliest surviving guilds in the Empire. The Eaglin Eagles, Pax Cagila & Calis Lions have roots in their respective linked-cities. The Fyrd of Ered Luin is the homeland army but has now been roped in for offensive operations.

Army Sponsor Marshal
Eaglin Eagles Archymond Paxwax Virgo Blue Star
Fyrd of Ered Luin Salvador Zond Celestial Fury
Est Sularus oth Mithas Milan Prestongreen Charles Elegant
Lightning Griffins Archymond Paxwax Archymond Paxwax
Pax Cagila Milan Prestongreen Mizuhiro Ishida
Calis Lions Salvador Zond Enri Kinsey

----

Letter from Remi Solari   (7 days, 19 hours ago)
(Personal message to Celestial Fury)
If you will allow me the honor, I'd like to campaign under the banner of Est Sularus oth Mithas.

----

Report from Remi Solari   (7 days, 17 hours ago)
Message sent to: Aknar Frendrin, Charles Elegant
Commanders—

It is my privilege and honor to report that my liege, the Duke of Nida, has granted me leave to campaign with your army. I am leaving Nida for Cagil now and eagerly await your orders.

In arms,
Remi Solari
Knight of Nida

Orders from Enri Kinsey   (5 days, 14 hours ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Remi Solari
Sir Remi,

I consider it good manners to announce yourself when you first join a realm.

Your liege is in Skalk. Please join him there, and accompany him on his patrols in southern CE.
Sir Enri Kinsey
General of Cagilan Empire
Knight of Ravening

----

Report from Remi Solari   (4 days, 11 hours ago)
(Personal message to Celestial Fury)
My lord—

Having recruited, I am now leaving the capital to rejoin you as per the General's admittedly unusual orders. Shall I meet you in Skalk?

----

Letter from Celestial Fury   (4 days, 4 hours ago)

Sir Remi,

I'm currently in Nida and shall remain here until rogues show up nearby.
Celestial Fury

----

Report from Remi Solari   (1 day, 18 hours ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Enri Kinsey
At the General's order, I have arrived in Nida and am reporting for duty.

----

Orders from Celestial Fury   (23 hours, 52 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Enri Kinsey, Remi Solari

Sir Remi,

I usually sit in a city until either:
rogues come up OR
region stats go down

Then I ride out into the sunrise / sunset.

You may follow these orders unless General Enri has others.

----

Orders from Enri Kinsey   (7 hours, 28 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Remi Solari

Sir Remi,

Your last orders were to join your liege in Skalk. He is still there. Are you in Skalk yet? No, you are not. You are in Nida. Please move to either Alatol or Garnagi, and then forward into Skalk.

You are to stick close to your liege unless ordered otherwise by him or me. Duke Celestial is responsible for patrolling our southern regions, but he is but one man, and cannot be everywhere at once. You can help by suppressing the smaller rogue infestations by yourself, and joining forces with your liege to attack any large rogue infestations that spring up.

----

Orders from Enri Kinsey   (6 hours, 35 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (67 recipients)

Those in Anost already have their orders.

Courtiers should be on the look-out for regions that might need your assistance.

Lord Garro, please keep raising militia in Eagle's Glen. What we currently have in the region is not enough. Please let me know if you run out of funds.

Duke Celestial, Sir Remi, please keep southern CE free of rogue forces. Sir Remi, I want you to stick close to your liege.

----

Letter from Remi Solari   (59 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Enri Kinsey
My apologies, General Enri. The last letter I received from my liege intimated that he was in Nida and not Skalk. Fortunately, I shall be able to ride out and meet him in Garnagi. Thank you for the opportunity to assist in what way I can.

DamnTaffer

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #3: December 21, 2012, 03:45:53 PM »
Social Contract - The main basis of the rules that all players must agree to. One account only.
Play fairly, as with friends
Always give newcomers the benefit of the doubt.
Keep other peoples' personal information personal.
Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence.

So Solari is being accused of not playing fairly and no evidence was provided?
 

Anaris

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #4: December 21, 2012, 03:47:37 PM »
It seems to me that he is being harassed due to an OOC perception on the part of Yangfan Wang that he is abusing his position as a dev to get an advantage in the game. That's not playing as with friends.
Timothy Collett

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Sacha

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #5: December 21, 2012, 05:00:37 PM »
Sheesh, you'd think a Lurian could stomach the OOC grief ::)

Vellos

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #6: December 21, 2012, 07:04:21 PM »
It does also appear to me that the player of Enri publicly accused him of cheating (without evidence), and furthermore is not playing as a friend.

HOWEVER– I am disinclined to take the odd assignment as meaningful evidence. Personally, I think it makes complete IC sense to send the cousin/nephew/brother/whatever of a former enemy to some kind of non-front-line duty for a while so you can keep an eye on him and make sure he doesn't do anything damaging. Especially an older player who's been around the block shouldn't be too heavily turned off by that IN AND OF ITSELF.

To me, though, the messages supplied indicate that order may have very little to do with such an IC motivation, and seem fairly clearly predicated an an OOC vendetta. Thus, while it COULD have been a novel (and really very amusing) power struggle of sorts, the OOC threatening and communication to me does seem to suggest unfair play and misconduct.

But I'd like to hear from the accused player as well. I hope somebody will notify him?
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Indirik

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #7: December 21, 2012, 07:19:57 PM »
Reporting a magistrates case automatically sends the "accused" a log-in message informing them of the fact, and directing them to the forums to participate in the case.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #8: December 21, 2012, 09:01:24 PM »
That's pretty severe harassment and major Social Contract violation, from what Solari posted.  The only thing I have to add is about the "threatening to escalate" bit.  Given the circumstances, I would say it was a quite restrained response, but that's skirting awfully close to the "not threatening to go to the Titans" rule, which I presume was implicitly expanded into "go to the Titans/Magistrates".

Unless some evidence drastically changes the picture, this seems like a very open and shut case, but I would just add a brief comment into the verdict about the escalation bit.
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GoldPanda

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #9: December 22, 2012, 02:28:18 AM »
I'm here.

Aaron provided a pretty complete record of what happened from his perspective. However, I do have some clarifications to add:

1. Enri has perfectly valid IC reasons for his orders. He has IC knowledge of the fact that Thomas Solari was spying on CE for Carelia, in the form of letters Thomas Solari sent to the rest of the Order of the Raven, with Enri's recent orders attached. He was never 100% sure who the spy in CE was, but he knew for a fact that Thomas Solari was the spy's handler in Carelia. Malus Solari's exploits on Dwilight should also have reached his ears eventually, since House Solari is on his radar now. All of this did not paint a very flattering picture of House Solari to Enri.

So given that, I believe it is perfectly reasonable for him to send a younger (possibly expendable) family member of House Solari away from the front lines. This will prevent most efforts at spying, cut off any opportunities for sabotage, and just as importantly to Enri, prevent the young Remi from gaining any influence or building a power base in CE. Enri knows from experience that the Solaris usually end up causing more damage with their schemes to their own realm than to their enemies. He doesn't have any evidence to use against Remi, but that doesn't mean that he has to make Remi's stay in CE comfortable, fruitful, or beneficial to Remi's career. Considering the difference in rank between Enri and Remi, I also submit that Enri has been reasonably respectful to the young man.

You can call it an IC vendetta from House Kinsey against House Solari if you wish. I personally do not believe it's quite at that level yet. Enri was willing to give young Remi a chance to prove himself, provided that Remi jumped through some hoops to show that he was sincere, but Enri's latest orders sound exasperated, because the young man does not appear to be willing or able to follow basic instructions.

It wasn't even that bad of an assignment. I ask the same question that Enri asked ICly: Is asking a young noble to bodyguard his own liege too much to ask for? Is a mission that is good enough for a Duke too much "grunt work" for a vassal knight?

2. I have publicly, OOCly accused Aaron of spying in-game, yes, but spying is not against the rules, and I hope that people can see my original message to Aaron as the playful jab and welcome that it was meant to be, "dagger eyes" and all. My personal OOC opinions on the act of spying itself was made quite clear, but I was not accusing him of breaking any game rules. So I did not break that clause of the Social Contract: "Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence." Spying using IC means is none of the above.

I also told him, in private, that I believed he was up to some shenanigans with new players, but this was in private, and I made it clear that I believed it wasn't against the rules either. I would have made a Titan or Magistrate complaint if I felt that Aaron had broken any rules.

3. I'm sorry if Aaron felt that I was harassing him with the few messages I sent to him from ~4 days ago. I made my OOC dislike for him quite clear, and perhaps that was a mistake on my part, but I believe I expressed myself in a calm and professional manner. I also made it clear to him that the discussion was over, at least from my end of it, and that I was not going to keep bothering him about it. And, indeed, I have not bothered him OOCly since then.

I would like to contrast that with his repeated IC and OOC demands for orders (even though Remi's previous orders were quite clear and had not been fulfilled yet), and Aaron OOCly telling me to "grow up", "put on your big boy pants", and publicly asking me "are you that stupid?" To be completely honest, I am a bit upset about all that. If one of my friends said that to me in person, we would not be friends for much longer, if there was no apology forthcoming.

I will be monitoring this thread as best as my schedule allows, and would be happy to answer any questions.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 02:34:01 AM by GoldPanda »
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Anaris

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #10: December 22, 2012, 02:58:07 AM »
In my eyes, at the very least, this line was way out of bounds:

Quote
... I have a theory about spying: You don't really need to gather intel using the old-fashioned ways anymore.

There, you all but outright accused Solari of either multicheating or abusing devly powers to obtain information. (Which, for the record, he can't: he doesn't have access to the live database or current messages sent and received, in any form. Only two people in the game have that access, and those are Tom and me.)
Timothy Collett

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GoldPanda

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #11: December 22, 2012, 03:04:53 AM »
It seems to me that he is being harassed due to an OOC perception on the part of Yangfan Wang that he is abusing his position as a dev to get an advantage in the game. That's not playing as with friends.

I was careful to never accuse Aaron of abuse or breaking the rules in any way. Unless you want to claim that you can read my mind and accuse me of a thought-crime?  ;)
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GoldPanda

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #12: December 22, 2012, 03:14:37 AM »
In my eyes, at the very least, this line was way out of bounds:

There, you all but outright accused Solari of either multicheating or abusing devly powers to obtain information. (Which, for the record, he can't: he doesn't have access to the live database or current messages sent and received, in any form. Only two people in the game have that access, and those are Tom and me.)

What? No. Here:

Quote
Letter from Enri Kinsey   (6 days, 1 hour ago)
(Personal message to Celestial Fury)
Your Grace,

When House Solari conducts espionage operations, communiques are never passed from one family member to another. That would far too easily stir up suspicion. Instead, House Solari has compromised several families on several islands through a patronage scheme. House Solari has great power and influence on some other islands, and they give promotions in rank to those families whose relatives spy for them on Atamara. Thomas Solari was in the process of building a new power base in Carelia, but he fled after Carelia's defeat. That was the only reason I did not put him on the Villains List.

I am guessing that this Remi is a part of some reverse scheme to regain a Solari beach-head on Atamara. He knows that the chances of us ever trusting him with power is small, so why join CE? So he could sell our secrets in exchange for power.

Please do not place your trust in him.
Sir Enri Kinsey
General of Cagilan Empire
Knight of Ravening

Please don't put words in my mouth. What Enri wrote is my best guess at how Aaron pulls off his spying for House Solari. (Which, again, is not against the rules.) The rest of us actually have to do things like contacting possibly disgruntled enemy knights, making them promises that we might not be able to keep, etc. You know, the hard way. Aaron has some sort of multi-island influence-peddling scheme going on, as far as I can tell. (Which, again, is not against the rules.) I'd admire it if it hasn't been such a thorn on my characters' collective sides.

Quote
"That's why I don't bother with spying, and haven't since leaving Carelia. Despite what you might think, and certainly despite what your character in D'Hara thinks."

He hasn't done any spying since Thomas Solari left Carelia, but apparently he knows what my character in D'Hara thinks, despite not having a character there. That's the only reason I called him a bad liar.
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Chenier

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #13: December 22, 2012, 03:19:45 AM »
Imo, any IC dislike or persecution of this character seems legitimate.

The judgement will be on the OOC content of the discussions.
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GoldPanda

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Re: Accusations of abuse and general harassment
« Reply #14: December 22, 2012, 03:53:05 AM »
In that case, let us put my original "dagger eyes" comment in context:

Quote
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari   (9 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
Always said I was going to create a character here some day. Well, now you're stuck with me. My condolences.
Aaron Champion

Out-of-Character from Nicotina Marlboro   (9 days, 2 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
There goes the neighborhood.

Out-of-Character from Mizuhiro Ishida   (8 days, 22 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
So the "illustrious" House Solari has finally come to plague us! XD
En Kai

Out-of-Character from Torsaan ka Habb   (8 days, 22 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
welcome to the dark side, we don't actually have cookies. we do have the tears of the innocent.
Dillan Mendonca

Out-of-Character from Londo Mollari Centaurum   (8 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
I don't get it, are you famous, Aaron, or something? and why are you offering condolences? are you trying to be funny?

Out-of-Character from Garro Tarvitz   (8 days, 14 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
Oh dear, now I'm stuck with him on two continents... why did this have to happen to me. :P
Chris Lowe

We were all teasing the new guy. Aaron himself began by offering his "condolences".

Then I expressed to him, in private, my personal OOC dissatisfaction with some of his character's IC actions in Carelia and Solaria. It doesn't always come through in a narrow medium such as text, but I really did try my best to be calm and professional about the whole thing. If that still amounts to "harassment", then I will accept any punishments with contrition. In the future, I do believe I will keep my OOC comments to my mentoring duties, and keep my mouth shut if I had any objective criticism.

However, I would like the Magistrates to consider:

1. The contents and tone of Aaron's own OOC comments to me, both public and in private. I also submit that Devs should be held to a slightly higher standard than us rank-and-file players. We look to you to lead us by example, after all.

2. Aaron did not make his complaint 5 days ago, when we had our OOC discussion, but only after Enri's IC orders. (I just checked. It was 5 days ago, not 4.) It seems to me that the latter, IC move by Enri is what Aaron is truly upset about.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 06:11:46 AM by ^ban^ »
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qui audet vincit