Author Topic: Vent Thread  (Read 41434 times)

Fleugs

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 668
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #15: December 28, 2012, 09:52:09 PM »
But even then, he complains when he has war. Seems he must also win said wars. Because as he said, LN is in war. With an enemy at a distance, and next door too.

That's not true. I didn't say that. I actually enjoyed loosing a war on the condition that said war entertained me. LN's war is not entertaining for various reasons, although this turn's attack of D'Hara/Luria Vesperi made me laugh out loud. That's rare for BM.

And then you complain about EC... Seriously? EC's been a bore-fest since at least half a decade. It is KNOWN for being peace-prone. Why do you even bother playing there, if endless and mindless war is all you want? 

What? The entire bottom of that continent was at war for at least a year and a half. The longest war I have ever known and be part of in Battlemaster. It wasn't endless, it wasn't mindless. At all. It was just lengthy. I never had anyone complaining to me that it was boring and the fact that the noble count only rose during that war - even up until the end - proves that it was what players sought for their characters, even if it was just an excuse to quickly gain h/p.

Honestly, I get the feeling the only reason you liked the invasion was because it left your realm amazingly overpowered while it utterly crippled your only neighbor. Because you seem to have an issue with things not going your way. You seem to want absolute control, not only over what other characters do, but what they feel as well. You seem frustrated that other players don't desire everything you desire.

Yes, Riombara is amazingly overpowered. I totally like it. No, Enweil isn't Riombara's only neighbour. We'd be in Fronen or Melhed within three days. The sea regions opened up so much possibilities. I don't want to "mind control" other people or coerce them into what I want, but I do think that my entire rant hits a critical spot: why our player base is declining. People are getting bored. Because players that do hold positions are seemingly content and are less encouraged to entertain those "underneath" them.

I may be rude, but honestly your rant was rude to a lot a players as well. Because your suggestion that removing everything above "peace" is simply stupid. You seem to call for mindless war, war for the sake of war. You also seem to want nothing but pawns. Because that's what war tends to do. Forces everyone to abandon individual initiatives in order to join up the war effort, where one guy shouts orders and the rest just click on travel and recruit as mindless automatons.

I was rude and I said I would be and feel free to return the rudeness to me. Perhaps some uncensored shouting would... resolve things. My suggestion to remove anything above peace was sarcasm though, that should have been obvious. No, I do not want everyone to become my pawns. The core message of my rant is that I wish to call upon rulers or players with power to take up their responsibilities and provide fun for everyone. It's like a socialist Battlemaster! I know where you are aiming at, with the pawns and all. It's about what I have in mind with Enweil. Perhaps I should tell you now that the concept here is that Enweil is basically an insurance for future war, in case we are bored of travelling half way up the continent. There you have it.

Besides wars do not work with one persons giving orders to "drones". You have a general, marshals and whatnot all involved to make sure your realms run smoothly. Tell me though what a general and marshals do in times of peace? I know! They carry their titles. That's it.

If you want war and only war, if you hate politics as much, if you want the ones below you do follow your instructions with awe, then you are simply playing the wrong game, and I repeat my previous statement: go play War Islands, or some other Risk! emulator.

Because if the lack of war can be boring in BM, the presence of it doesn't necessarily cure it either. Because war and fun are not one and the same. There are many avenues for fun, and war is just one of them. And for many people, there's very little of interest in war. And if there's no RP to back it up, that "war for the sake of war" is the only thing behind the politics involved, that's not making for a very exciting realm for many.

If you can make up RP for all kind of things, it should not be hard to make up RP for war. Whatever way you put it I am certain that war is essential to Battlemaster. It is the most crucial part of this game and all the rest is just sweet decoration. I could toss back your suggestion about BM:WI, to say that if you want RP so much, you might as well go join a text-based RP forum.

Your characters are mobile. Instead of trying to force your play style on others, perhaps you should just migrate to a place where they already have it? There are plenty of wars going on right now, and there's absolutely nothing preventing you from migrating to one of the realms involved in them.

My rant does not come out of the blue. I have been migrating. For a long time now. I've had enough of that. And I will not quit BM.
Ardet nec consumitur.

Penchant

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3121
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #16: December 28, 2012, 10:00:40 PM »
I disagree. It's central, fortified and rich. D'Hara may not see it as the outstanding military bulwark that it is but the leaders of that planned colony certainly did. In fact, we saw D'Hara as a waste of space in THE prime location on Dwilight for a warmongering, bloodthirsty, battle-hymn singing realm.
Central and fortified sure but definitely not rich at the moment. My character with 500 gold is considered rather wealthy at the moment, at least that is what it seems like with the lack of anybody else giving funds  to others that often. Ironically he is not even a lord. As to the perfect place for warmongering, yes and no. You can attack plenty of people but if you plan to live long, you have to be careful with diplomacy so you don' piss off too many people at once. That and you can be attacked anywhere in your realm with no way to scout at the moment is not that great for D'hara either. So if you kept all your fights in the realm you are fighting, you were only fighting one realm, and your economy was good with good recruitment centers while this was going on, D'hara might do a decent job as a bloodthirsty warmongering realm.  Also, D'hara will never be as rich as it once was because not only will we have to pay a plenty of food but now we have large amounts of gold going just to sea travel.

Edit: Some of this is a repeat of what Chenier said.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
― G.K. Chesterton

Lorgan

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1185
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #17: December 28, 2012, 10:28:41 PM »
Soldiers don't eat gold.

Yes they do.
Anyway, supported by a decent mainland empire that provides food, like northern luria or what you tried to have with the moot, food should not be an issue.

And if you saw that, then no wonder you are doing such a horrible job as general. D'Hara's an atrocious place to defend. Once the old sea routes are removed, it'll be better, sure, but the sea travel is a new feature.

Because having the only invasion-routes be through a line of heavily fortified regions is a luxury we all have.
And with the new system... have you /tried/ landing in a region with troops (oh wait you did, how did that work out for you again)? And have you /tried/ doing it in a fortified region? You guys have the best defensive position in the game. Better than Arcaea even. Especially once sea zones kick in in the FEI. Who cares if you need food for it? Make friends with the right people then fight everyone else.

And if you saw that, then no wonder you are doing such a horrible job as general

Battle in Shinnen Purlieus
Total combat strengths: 7152 vs. 9607
The defenders take up positions inside the Motte and Bailey (2).

'Nuff said.
But not really though. You know that we're not coming after you. We're just assimilating LV so we can move on and do stuff that matters, you're the one prolonging this boring war. IF we were to come after you though, I'd imagine we'd run into a bunch of militia when trying to land. If not, who's the idiot?

And you say central as if it was some kind of advantage. All it means is that "distance from home" is likely to kick in no matter who you attack and that anybody can backstab you from anywhere at any time.

No it means you can fight all over the continent with less of a distance from home penalty than others have. And to really backstab you, one needs a massive army. Because remember: forts, militia and naval travel. D'Hara must only fear a mainland invasion from Aurvandil, an SA-bloc or a Luria that isn't distracted at home and looks the same way for once. Anyone else just does not have the resources to bring a successful invasion force to the islands, not alone.

Perhaps other rulers aren't the problem here, but the ridiculous expectations you make yourselves and your inability to achieve anything with the things you do have.

Come again? Luria is a place where dreams go to die, I fully agree with that. There's a whole lot of grand plans than a bunch of whining and peacocking and then nothing happens. But remember you're also talking to the guy that claimed Overlord's horns at the beginning of the invasion, to his face, and now enjoys refreshing beverages from nothing but those horns.

Luria's problem is a problem of characters and culture and I would say that D'Hara's problem is much the same. Just the fact that you insist that D'Hara has a terrible defensive position proves this point. They are however not my problems.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 10:31:01 PM by Lorgan »

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #18: December 28, 2012, 10:29:37 PM »
Whether EC had a war or not lately is beside the point. Whenever there's complaints about too much peace, or the game being boring because of politics, 90% of the time it comes from the East Continent. That continent's a !@#$hole. That's the one that should have been sunk, not SEI.

Fronen and Melhed are realms within reach, not neighbors.

As for decline, current statistics suggest a slight increase in active members. In any case, it can't be said for sure what causes it. The extremely more complex nature of the game than back then could explain it just as well. After all, wars create losers, and many people quit because they can' stand defeat.

My "pawns" comment has nothing to do with whatever you have in mind for Enweil. I just utterly hate being a rank-and-file troop leader. And have for a very long time. Giving me war won't make me any more interested in a realm if I'm just a rank-and-file troop leader.

Many realms have a general/marshal. One guy in charge of barking out all of the others. Or a marshal does that as much, with a general that does nothing. Or vice versa. Most wars involve a very limited number of people barking out red paper to a bunch of rank-and-file troop leaders.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Jimgerdes

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • There is no cow level
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #19: December 28, 2012, 10:30:51 PM »
This is going a little off topic, but since we're discussing problems with player mentality I feel it's worth mentioning

My character with 500 gold is considered rather wealthy at the moment, at least that is what it seems like with the lack of anybody else giving funds  to others that often.

Why is that not normal?  I see this everywhere "Send gold requests to the council."  Why is it the norm for dukes and rulers to be giving their wealth away to lesser nobles?  That doesn't make any sense to me.  Knights get taxes from their lords.  If they don't get enough to pay their soldiers, perhaps the knight should find a new lord that can actually pay them what they deserve.

I get spreading that wealth around makes your realm's army better, but it just never made sense to me IC and I'm pretty sure it didn't use to be like that.
No man is an island, unto himself.

Lorgan

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1185
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #20: December 28, 2012, 10:53:33 PM »
Central and fortified sure but definitely not rich at the moment. My character with 500 gold is considered rather wealthy at the moment, at least that is what it seems like with the lack of anybody else giving funds  to others that often. Ironically he is not even a lord. As to the perfect place for warmongering, yes and no. You can attack plenty of people but if you plan to live long, you have to be careful with diplomacy so you don' piss off too many people at once. That and you can be attacked anywhere in your realm with no way to scout at the moment is not that great for D'hara either. So if you kept all your fights in the realm you are fighting, you were only fighting one realm, and your economy was good with good recruitment centers while this was going on, D'hara might do a decent job as a bloodthirsty warmongering realm.  Also, D'hara will never be as rich as it once was because not only will we have to pay a plenty of food but now we have large amounts of gold going just to sea travel.

Edit: Some of this is a repeat of what Chenier said.

Of course D'Hara isn't in the best shape right now, the long winter raped you guys harder than anyone else and while Luria is also still recovering from it, D'Hara has proportionally MUCH more regions that need to recover. It has however immense economic potential. And that's what I'm talking about, not the current reality but the objective potential of your geography.
Obviously you need to be good enough at PR to not be seen as a warlike maniac by others. Don't mindlessly attack anyone who looks funny but if you've got a smart aggressive realm with a geography like D'Hara's, you can do great things militarily.
But really, if you set out to do great things, it's usually best to be smart about it.

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #21: December 28, 2012, 11:02:21 PM »
Yes they do.
Anyway, supported by a decent mainland empire that provides food, like northern luria or what you tried to have with the moot, food should not be an issue.

No, they don't. And yes, it would. You really are clueless as to D'Hara's food needs. At least the population rebalance helped things out a little, but still... That was plenty compensated by the ridiculous rot that is always in effect nowadays, regardless of warehouses. D'Hara imported food from the rest of the 'moot AND all corners of the continent. And it wasn't enough. No, Luria alone could not supply a decent enough food supply for D'Hara.

Because having the only invasion-routes be through a line of heavily fortified regions is a luxury we all have.
And with the new system... have you /tried/ landing in a region with troops (oh wait you did, how did that work out for you again)? And have you /tried/ doing it in a fortified region? You guys have the best defensive position in the game. Better than Arcaea even. Especially once sea zones kick in in the FEI. Who cares if you need food for it? Make friends with the right people then fight everyone else.

Right... Because the sea routes that lead to D'Hara aren't also as defended? And because 2000 CS behind lvl 3-5 walls is so DIFFICULT to defeat? Sure, the long sea routes USED to make it difficult for armies to arrive together... somewhat. But with the new delay arrival mechanic, that's not much of a concern.

The sea routes help make D'Hara more defensible, because it makes invasions costly in terms of embarking costs and disembarking casualties, but also especially because it allows D'Haran forces to move from one part of D'Hara to another regardless of having any region occupied by an enemy (previously, having a single region occupied meant that our realm was cut in half). So sure, the new sea travel makes us a bit more defendable... But it also makes participating in ANY conflict a hell of a lot more expensive.

Battle in Shinnen Purlieus
Total combat strengths: 7152 vs. 9607
The defenders take up positions inside the Motte and Bailey (2).

'Nuff said.
But not really though. You know that we're not coming after you. We're just assimilating LV so we can move on and do stuff that matters, you're the one prolonging this boring war. IF we were to come after you though, I'd imagine we'd run into a bunch of militia when trying to land. If not, who's the idiot?

What's your point? You act as if I somehow had anything to do with that battle. I've not been in any way even remotely involved in any battle. LV, +1 D'Haran noble, launched a stupid attack. So what? Lurians doing typical Lurian-style attacks.

Don't act as if the conflict is young. Or Luria's desire to attack D'Hara. This current war is plenty old. And your plans to invade are years old. LV got involved quite late in the war. We had barely anything left waving our flag. And now, we basically got it all back from the days of our peak. And we've been regaining land since before LV did anything.

No it means you can fight all over the continent with less of a distance from home penalty than others have. And to really backstab you, one needs a massive army. Because remember: forts, militia and naval travel. D'Hara must only fear a mainland invasion from Aurvandil, an SA-bloc or a Luria that isn't distracted at home and looks the same way for once. Anyone else just does not have the resources to bring a successful invasion force to the islands, not alone.

No, it means that unlike anyone else, we don't have any neighbors we could attack without having the distance from home penalty. Anyone, anywhere, is able to launch battles far away. Not just D'Hara. We just happen to not have anyone close to our capital, just a whole bunch of nothing (sea).

Forts are expensive. Militia is expensive. Naval travel is expensive. Food is expensive. And somehow, you think you have funds left after all of that to launch a sensible war? Did you even think of the costs of sailing BACK to the islands after any campaign? Because if you invade D'Hara, and somehow succeed, you can be pretty damn sure you aren't getting Paisly as a harbor on the western continent. Because if sailing from a friendly port with an army is expensive, sailing back from a hostile port is ridiculously more.

And stop citing "distractions" and not being united. D'Hara had nothing but a few regions left after unprecedented starvation, that's when Luria Nova and Solaria attacked us. And we fended you off on our own. You lost because Lurian military sucks. Not because of how awesome the isles are: we barely had any of it remaining under our control.

Come again? Luria is a place where dreams go to die, I fully agree with that. There's a whole lot of grand plans than a bunch of whining and peacocking and then nothing happens. But remember you're also talking to the guy that claimed Overlord's horns at the beginning of the invasion, to his face, and now enjoys refreshing beverages from nothing but those horns.
Luria's problem is a problem of characters and culture and I would say that D'Hara's problem is much the same. Just the fact that you insist that D'Hara has a terrible defensive position proves this point. They are however not my problems.

You can't seriously be taking any credit for your successes in the invasion... Invasions are a roll of the die. With the possibility of damning yourself or, like Enweil, being damned by others. Rio's had it nice many invasions in a row. Not because of how godly you were.

Luria's problem is its culture? Funny thing, the only good thing I ever hear about Luria is precisely its culture.

D'Hara's problem is the same? Who said we had a culture problem? That we considered our culture problematic? Or that our culture was in any way similar?

As for D'Hara's defenses, you obsess so much with the dazzling walls that you ignore all of the vulnerabilities. I guess we just did an awesome job hiding them for all of these years. I'm not saying that D'Hara can't fend off any invasion. I'm saying that it had weaknesses that could have been exploited to disastrous impacts. And most of all, I'm saying it makes for an atrocious warmongering realm. Having a bunch of walls doesn't mean you can launch successful invasions, or that you should even try.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #22: December 28, 2012, 11:03:42 PM »
This is going a little off topic, but since we're discussing problems with player mentality I feel it's worth mentioning

Why is that not normal?  I see this everywhere "Send gold requests to the council."  Why is it the norm for dukes and rulers to be giving their wealth away to lesser nobles?  That doesn't make any sense to me.  Knights get taxes from their lords.  If they don't get enough to pay their soldiers, perhaps the knight should find a new lord that can actually pay them what they deserve.

I get spreading that wealth around makes your realm's army better, but it just never made sense to me IC and I'm pretty sure it didn't use to be like that.

You incorrectly assume that all regions are able to provide a similar income for everyone. Relying on estates alone is pretty sure to guarantee some people with too much gold and many people with barely any.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Penchant

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3121
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #23: December 28, 2012, 11:13:24 PM »
This is going a little off topic, but since we're discussing problems with player mentality I feel it's worth mentioning

Why is that not normal?  I see this everywhere "Send gold requests to the council."  Why is it the norm for dukes and rulers to be giving their wealth away to lesser nobles?  That doesn't make any sense to me.  Knights get taxes from their lords.  If they don't get enough to pay their soldiers, perhaps the knight should find a new lord that can actually pay them what they deserve.

I get spreading that wealth around makes your realm's army better, but it just never made sense to me IC and I'm pretty sure it didn't use to be like that.
You incorrectly assume that all regions are able to provide a similar income for everyone. Relying on estates alone is pretty sure to guarantee some people with too much gold and many people with barely any.
Besides that, when a realm is at war and a troop leader says I need 50 gold or my troops will abandon me, do you seriously expect the wealthier people to just say !@#$ you find your own gold? The reason my character likes to give gold which is extremely historically accurate is doing it to show his wealth through his generosity. If you look in the background section of the forum where the more scholar type things are said, it was shared that was the key difference between nobility and commoners who got rich, and the quality was called largesse which was a stat considered to be used for when the stats system of prestige and honor is changed so yes wealthy nobility giving to the less fortunate nobility is quite historically accurate, especially during wartime.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
― G.K. Chesterton

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #24: December 28, 2012, 11:27:20 PM »
That was plenty compensated by the ridiculous rot that is always in effect nowadays, regardless of warehouses.

No, sorry; rot is less now than it used to be. You just think it's a lot because now it actually tells you what's rotting instead of it just disappearing silently into the aether all the time.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #25: December 28, 2012, 11:47:54 PM »
No, sorry; rot is less now than it used to be. You just think it's a lot because now it actually tells you what's rotting instead of it just disappearing silently into the aether all the time.

Less rot than two years ago?
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Penchant

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3121
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #26: December 29, 2012, 12:04:27 AM »
What's your point? You act as if I somehow had anything to do with that battle. I've not been in any way even remotely involved in any battle. LV, +1 D'Haran noble, launched a stupid attack. So what? Lurians doing typical Lurian-style attacks.
One minor correction, this last battle is entirely D'hara's though I am unsure why what happened. Maybe poor communication between realms but their are enough D'harans sitting in Shinnen that they could have caused D'hara to win the battle if they had attacked, or at least made it a lot closer of a battle. Normally I wouldn't reveal any troop placements but if LN doesn't know about the D'harans being there it's kinda pathetic, so I assume they know.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 12:06:21 AM by Penchant »
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
― G.K. Chesterton

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #27: December 29, 2012, 12:08:06 AM »
One minor correction, this last battle is entirely D'hara's though I am unsure why what happened. Maybe poor communication between realms but their are enough D'harans sitting in Shinnen that they could have caused D'hara to win the battle if they had attacked, or at least made it a lot closer of a battle. Normally I wouldn't reveal any troop placements but if LN doesn't know about the D'harans being there it's kinda pathetic, so I assume they know.

Just goes to prove that I have absolutely nothing to do with any D'Haran military operations.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Kwanstein

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #28: December 29, 2012, 12:14:38 AM »
The lack of war bothers me, but what I really take issue with is the consolidation of land on many Islands. The Colonies started with 9 (I believe) realms. Now there are only three. East Continent when I started playing (2004~) had 13 realms. Now there are 8. So over the years we've seen the smaller realms gobbled up by empires. Empires of boring. Most of the huge realms have been around forever and will likely continue forever as well. Lack of change is boring. Dwindling number of realms kills off opportunities for fun. And not least of all is that waging war as a large realm is inherently less exciting because the stakes are lower and the distance you have to travel to refit is higher than in a small realm.

I started playing in Coimbra and it was hella fun, battles constantly going on; desperately scraping together scarce gold in order to recruit a new unit; the threat of destruction always looming over the horizon. Then Coimbra was destroyed and I decided to continue the fight against Oligarch by joining Sirion... but it was hella boring. It was just triumph after triumph, our future victory was always certain. Battles were less frequent and gold was always on hand. It lacked the fast pace and tension of Coimbra. The consolidation of realms has essentially destroyed all of the Coimbras out there and left nothing but Sirions. So the game is much less interesting now than it once was...

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #29: December 29, 2012, 12:17:15 AM »
Chenier,

I don't know about you but the part of EC I was in fought five realms for years. I don't know which EC you were playing on but on EC I was playing on, it has only gotten boring about a couple months ago.