Author Topic: Vent Thread  (Read 19683 times)

Fleugs

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Vent Thread
« Topic Start: December 28, 2012, 08:00:39 PM »
It is time. I've been complaining on IRC long enough, but I think I might as well start venting out what troubles me in BM and do it on the forum. What really grinds my gear - Battlemaster Edition. I may complain about the realms I am in, I may complain about continents and I may complain about the general state of affair in Battlemaster. For obvious purposes: I wish to make clear to new(er) players that this post is in no way meant to discourage you from playing the game, but rather to make a good choice as to which realm you should join, and what the essence of this game is (for me). Consider this some advanced-playing rant that you would probably not fully understand.

Nowadays most rulers are pussies.

Let me start by saying that there are still some decent rulers out there. Rulers who know what this game is about: war. I would like to congratulate them on putting in an effort to entertain the people playing in their realm. For what is there to do, really, if you are but a simple noble in a realm? Do not think though that all realms that are at war are instantly absolved of my whining, no sir! I shall come back to that later.

What seems to me to be a clear tendency lately is that rulers are in fact power-hungry people who, through a stroke of luck or by making false promises, have achieved the ultimately position one can have in a realm. In most realms they hold all the power and even if they are subject to the will of the rest of nobility (i.e. republics or democracies). Kings, dictators, tyrants or pontifices who are at peace are the perfect example of scared ducks sitting on a throne. I know plenty realms where the ruler can easily get into war if only he would have the balls to do so.

Let's pause and look at East Continent. Once my favourite continent, I now think it is about the best example of what Battlemaster is not about. I admit I had my own hand in what EC looks like now - even greatly, maybe. But at least I put my balls on the chopping block and went for some crazy round of "let's see who's man enough". Turns out my realm wasn't. To the point though: have you looked at East Continent lately? I'm sorry. Peace Continent! Dobby, in conspiracy with some other courage-lacking rulers of realms there, are absolutely trying their best to keep all realms at peace. Perdan, Caligus, Sirion: your local threesome of peace! Surprises me they aren't growing weed yet or handing out shrooms to keep the players subdued. I recall Tom once called upon the Gods of this magnificent browser game and shook up the East Continent, because there was peace. I call upon him to do that again, rather sooner than later, so that this fine continent may once again know the burning of commonfolk and the plundering of cities, as it should be.

I will not stop at East Continent though. I'll (vaguely) refer to people, too, and I will frankly not care if people will not like me for that. So if your name is called by me and I start tossing mud your way, feel free to toss mud back any time, or otherwise explain why my accusations are wrong. I am reasonable and, frankly, this is mostly a rant. Moving on, I can't say much for Atamara. I went to Darka, I remembered that once I liked Atamara (and Darka) too, then I figured out we had to travel almost two weeks to see one battle, and I left. Probably I picked the wrong realm, for Atamara knows plenty of war and since I'm not part of that continent, well, there's really no point for me to say anything about it. I am part of Far-East Island though.

We once had fun on FEI. I can't really remember when. It wasn't that long ago. Some good north-south war was going on and, sure, people were complaining about it being some gangbang but it wasn't, really. It didn't feel like it. You should know I am in Arcaea. How can I best picture Arcaea for those who do not know it? 't Is gigantic. Truly amazing how huge it is. But the waste of potential is painful. If it wouldn't be cause to some giant diplomatic riot that would end up in me losing my region, I would join Sorraine with my region and help them in the frontline. But I can't, really, because Arcaea would never tolerate a region leaving them. Why should they? That's not the point. The point is that Arcaea isn't at war. I don't even understand why. Sometimes it is beneficial to be simple of mind and when you are, you just have to look to realms bordering Arcaea and you'll think: "Hey, there's plenty of realms to go to war with!" But we aren't. Why not? Beats me. I think Velax is scared of seeing his Bentley getting scratched in the process. Maybe Arcaea just needs to stop caring about having good relations with their (southern) neighbours and decide that, well, it's time to offer the players of their realm some fun, and go to war. You think that is a stupid reason? It is what I did with Ibladesh, and even though that realm is now gone, I am proud to say that I offered all people who played in Ibladesh entertainment for as long as the war lasted. They took our lands but they didn't take our fun. Luckily the lands don't vanish into thin air. The fun does though.

So having bashed at FEI and Velax a little (I'm sorry man, you're actually a good player), allow me to address Beluaterra real quickly. An interesting continent, because I can bash myself a little for that - I am after all the ruler of Riombara. I should feel a little good about myself though, because my character there (and, basically, me as a player) is one that will look for trouble. Currently we are making Enweil squirm without even drawing a sword. That's a shame. Perhaps we should draw swords anyway and if it were up to me and me alone, we would. We would go smack Enweil around the ears so hard their left and right ear would swap places, and then we would move on to Fronen. Why do I say Fronen? Well their ruler lashed out, and in moments of peace, everybody not agreeing with your perspective is a completely valid target for war. I'm sorry, do I sound like a dictator? At least dictators bring war! That's what this game is about. So if Riombara were a kingdom that elected me, by now we would be at least warring Enweil and making plans to colonize Creasur and Fronepu. You see, thinking like a megalomaniac allows you to make a lot of enemies. Enemies bring war. War brings fun for those players that decide you were the one to lead them.

Sadly enough Riombara is no kingdom. Even more so, everything is voted upon in Riombara. I'm positive that war will come, though, as it appears that many nobles feel like I do - it's time for fun! It is much like Melhed, you know, only that Riombara actually knows what war is. Melhed: do you even war? The daimons don't even count. Or your way-too-late pathetic involvement in Fronen. You had your chance to attack Thalmarkin but you pussied out. Good riddance. I really hope half of your nobles decide to ditch you because of that. They should, you know. As soon as another realm goes to war I hope they migrate like a herd of antelopes crossing some or another Great African Plain. There are things equally horrible as Melhed though. Fronen. A month or so ago Fronen suggested a SIX MONTH PEACE TREATY for all realms on Beluaterra. I (not entirely friendly) thanked them for that suggestion and they gave me a very good laugh, but the scary thing is that their Doge actually meant it. He, or she, was actively trying to lock all realms of BT into a half-year peace. We might as well just delete our characters because I'm pretty sure Tom would do it otherwise. It are things exactly like that which brought me to writing all of this nonsense-rant. People should not even be seriously considering that. No, just no. Actually, like when you are taming animals, BT's rulers should have collectively agreed in an OOC-fashion that this was the most ridiculous proposal ever, and should have simply marched over there and either whipped Fronen into humiliation, or toss taunting letters over their walls. Not sure what would have been most fun.

In general, though, I like Beluaterra the most. The invasion was brilliant and all people who were involved in that should be applauded. It was one of these moments of Battlemaster that I will never forget. I know the aftermath is made out of rebuilding but I'm pretty sure wars are to come, if they aren't even on our doorstep yet. Whatever I can personally do to make a war happen, I will. Otherwise this entire topic would be hypocritical.

Do allow me to move on to Dwilight, the continent that you can easily call my nemesis. The concept of Dwilight is great and when it was made I was really excited. That excitement has been brutally murdered in the three times I tried to play on that continent. The people who have steered, or are steering, Dwilight have either no idea what they are doing or are simply selfish. SA really is one giant block and when I was in Corsanctum I quickly started to hate it because, damn, that realm has seriously no outlook to war. They claim to be the holy house of their religion or whatever other RP it was and it all sounded so nice but never, ever, will that realm be interesting if they don't actually behave like the centre of SA. Don't even get me started on SA. Hats off to those who made it big, but I put my hat back on when I see how horribly unpromising their hegemony is coming to be. The perfect recipe for the most boring region ever. Spreading out your religion and such is perfectly acceptable but it should not come at the cost of peace. Yes, peace. If you wish to convert an entire continent to one faith, go ahead, but don't have everybody cuddle eachother. Let's learn from the Christians during the Dark Ages and embrace the fact that smashing eachother's head in is fun too. Now I should be honest and say that it's been a while since I actually got interested in the goings of SA. They may perfectly well be warring eachother and in that case, congratulations, keep on going! Also, tell me which realm I should join then because I am about to ditch Luria Nova (and they ARE at war).

Ah, the Lurias. I learned from the Lurias that I should never trust it when people have these cool plans on IRC and ask me to join. We were going to colonize D'Hara but, hey, the requirement is actually being able to defeat D'Hara. Now we're warring Luria Vesperi and it's all fun and games, but the apathy that is growing in Luria Nova is horrible, and it is something which Fulco should really act upon. Being the ruler it is your duty to entertain the players of your realm. At least make them interested in the war - do so by sending out propaganda! People who are elected to be ruler should not see that as a "gift", but as a job. "Congratulations, you are now ruler! Everything bad about this realm is now your fault and you should mend it." That's not even far off from the truth. You owe it to each and every player with a character in your realm to provide for them an atmosphere that is entertaining. People do not play Battlemaster to be bored. The fact that LN's general is going to abandon the realm is... damn, shame on you LN. Shame on you. You have a war going and you can't even keep a general interested? I heard all about these "great Lurian intrigue in politics" but I'm starting to think it's just a group of players circlejerking on old feuds.


It is about time I conclude my (first) rant and if you have been able to read all of it, I both pity and congratulate you. I fully realize that by posting this I will take a lot of flak but I don't care. I'm nearing my 10th anniversary in Battlemaster and it is about damn time that I had my say. This game is great, and will remain great, but once in a while it doesn't hurt to remind some people what their "duties" are. I wasn't gentle and when I rant again here, I will not be gentle. This is Battlemaster and war is the crucial part of this game. The lack of it makes me rage.
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Chenier

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #1: December 28, 2012, 08:13:14 PM »
Play War Islands, then?
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Velax

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #2: December 28, 2012, 08:20:41 PM »
I've been playing BM (this time around) for a bit over two years, the whole time spent in Arcaea, and we've been at war for probably 80% of that time. During that time there have been, by my count, ten different wars in the FEI and Arcaea has been directly involved in six of them, three of them since Velax took over as ruler - one of those a continent-wide war. How much war do you frigging want?

Lanyon

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #3: December 28, 2012, 08:21:45 PM »
Mentioned dwilight- didn't mention Aurvandil. christmas miracle.

Fleugs

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #4: December 28, 2012, 08:30:04 PM »
I've been playing BM (this time around) for a bit over two years, the whole time spent in Arcaea, and we've been at war for probably 80% of that time. During that time there have been, by my count, ten different wars in the FEI and Arcaea has been directly involved in six of them, three of them since Velax took over as ruler - one of those a continent-wide war. How much war do you frigging want?

Possibly true, and I've heard people say that Arcaea once fought this epic war (for survival). Can I ask you though, do you think Arcaea is ready for war or not? If you are ready, why are you not fighting? Dynamics - the coming and going of realms - is something that has always intrigued me. It allows for new ideas to rise, new players to get opportunities and get involved. Peace does not bring that promise. Should you be afraid to overplay your hand, or overstretch your realm, up to the point that it disintegrates into small "warring factions"? I know that when you are a ruler you get the feeling that often things are happening. But that doesn't go for the more average noble, even if he or she is a lord. Hunting monsters is only fun for a short amount of time.

Maybe another invasion wouldn't be a bad idea. But this game is not about fighting "NPC" (although invasion forces are player-guided), it is basically about some large-scale pvp. At least that is what it is to me.
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Jimgerdes

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #5: December 28, 2012, 08:33:23 PM »
Play War Islands, then?

War Islands is not Battlemaster.  This post has nothing to do with War Islands, they are two very different games.
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Jimgerdes

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #6: December 28, 2012, 08:46:58 PM »
Apologies for the double post (I feel like two different things should be discussed in two different replies), but I want to jump in on what Fleugs said about rulers being too cautious.  Would it not make sense IC for a ruler to be cautious?  I suppose it would depend on the character, but as a ruler your whole job is to keep the realm together.  Not wanting to get your realm destroyed makes perfect sense coming from the perspective of individual characters.
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Lychaon

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #7: December 28, 2012, 08:49:00 PM »
I don't know many of these examples you complain about, but it's true that for big realms with enough military strength to bully their neighbours, it should be all about searching for an elaborate RP or IC excuse to declare war (or make its neighbour declare war on it). But it would be just simplistic; this is a game of intrigue and politics too, and I think over time it's been created a quite rich background that maybe just feeds many players, who enjoy improving endlessly their realms.

Of course it's really amusing warring, and when wars involve huge realms, war is something that can provide fun with not too many awful consequences for any of the contenders, since they're too strong to be destroyed by the other easily. I don't know exactly how has been your experience in the realms you've quoted, but maybe you should have picked weak ones to start, if you didn't. If you pick huge and crowded realms just because you expect to be quickly crashing cranes, you've got some chances to be disappointed. But small realms I think usually face which in my opinion are the most exciting wars, wars for survival.

Fleugs

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #8: December 28, 2012, 09:02:28 PM »
Apologies for the double post (I feel like two different things should be discussed in two different replies), but I want to jump in on what Fleugs said about rulers being too cautious.  Would it not make sense IC for a ruler to be cautious?  I suppose it would depend on the character, but as a ruler your whole job is to keep the realm together.  Not wanting to get your realm destroyed makes perfect sense coming from the perspective of individual characters.

Yes, yes it does. In fact, that's a core business of a ruler. I encourage rulers to engage into war, though. Not to destroy realms entirely. Actually, that's another tendency in battlemaster that might need... change. But that should totally go in another oversized post of me.

Lychaeon captures a part of the truth that small realms have fun wars. Wars for survival can be lengthy and afterwards give great satisfaction, given your realm still exists. Nevertheless Battlemaster still has plenty of huge realms, particularly several continents. Battlemaster is indeed a game of intrigue and politics, too. There's two ways to approach this statement:
1) You declare war based on what you know is a fabricated claim or bogus reason and everybody punishes you in their white knight spirit.
2) Another opportunistic realms sees that your realm is taking a lot of the attention away and decides they might as well jump in and claim some land of your enemies because, well, their armies are at the front lines fighting off you armies - so they can go no a rampage. Those are always fun.

The ideal situation is that everybody is like number 2 and before you know it your entire continent is an exploding powder keg.
Maybe the everything above "peace" should just be abolished. That would make it fun!
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Penchant

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #9: December 28, 2012, 09:24:26 PM »
I think an easy thing to describe how Battlemaster is far to often would be to think of WWI as that was caused basically by an action that pissed off one realm so they declared war then all of their allies joined in. Having this every once in awhile is good but every war just being everyone calls in their allies gets old.
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Lorgan

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #10: December 28, 2012, 09:25:16 PM »
The fact that LN's general is going to abandon the realm is... damn, shame on you LN. Shame on you. You have a war going and you can't even keep a general interested?

That's not really anyone's fault but my own. I've just been in a BM-funk lately and when I do stuff for BM, it's usually for Thalmarkin since that's simply the realm that I care most about. That and I have plans that don't involve LN. And it's not really a challenging war to sink my teeth into that nevertheless takes a lot of time to complete...
Those are not the right ingredients to get me out of my funk.

I think an easy thing to describe how Battlemaster is far to often would be to think of WWI as that was caused basically by an action that pissed off one realm so they declared war then all of their allies joined in. Having this every once in awhile is good but every war just being everyone calls in their allies gets old.

The source of that problem is that most realms sit around and wait for stuff to happen. In stead of actively looking for conflict they wait for such an incident where conflict is handed to them on a silver platter. Perhaps IC it makes sense to be careful as a ruler because there's a lot at risk and your realm may die but then if it's not at war, is it really alive? The only times I would consider replying "yes" to that are either if there is a whole bunch of lethal intrigue going on inside the realm, or if it is actively preparing for war. Anything that is not just existing.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 09:32:46 PM by Lorgan »

Chenier

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #11: December 28, 2012, 09:27:59 PM »
War Islands is not Battlemaster.  This post has nothing to do with War Islands, they are two very different games.

That's my point. BattleMaster is a game of politics.

If he wants just war, then there are better games for him.

But even then, he complains when he has war. Seems he must also win said wars. Because as he said, LN is in war. With an enemy at a distance, and next door too.

Man you'd have been disappointed had you had your wish of colonising D'Hara. Seriously. You want to do nothing but fighting, and of all he lands, you want D'HARA?

And then you complain about EC... Seriously? EC's been a bore-fest since at least half a decade. It is KNOWN for being peace-prone. Why do you even bother playing there, if endless and mindless war is all you want?

And what do you care what other realms do of themselves? Want Melhed to go to war? Then declare war on them, and you'll solve two "problems" at once. Only Melites have a right to complain about Melite peace.

Honestly, I get the feeling the only reason you liked the invasion was because it left your realm amazingly overpowered while it utterly crippled your only neighbor. Because you seem to have an issue with things not going your way. You seem to want absolute control, not only over what other characters do, but what they feel as well. You seem frustrated that other players don't desire everything you desire.

I may be rude, but honestly your rant was rude to a lot a players as well. Because your suggestion that removing everything above "peace" is simply stupid. You seem to call for mindless war, war for the sake of war. You also seem to want nothing but pawns. Because that's what war tends to do. Forces everyone to abandon individual initiatives in order to join up the war effort, where one guy shouts orders and the rest just click on travel and recruit as mindless automatons.

If you want war and only war, if you hate politics as much, if you want the ones below you do follow your instructions with awe, then you are simply playing the wrong game, and I repeat my previous statement: go play War Islands, or some other Risk! emulator.

Because if the lack of war can be boring in BM, the presence of it doesn't necessarily cure it either. Because war and fun are not one and the same. There are many avenues for fun, and war is just one of them. And for many people, there's very little of interest in war. And if there's no RP to back it up, that "war for the sake of war" is the only thing behind the politics involved, that's not making for a very exciting realm for many.

Your characters are mobile. Instead of trying to force your play style on others, perhaps you should just migrate to a place where they already have it? There are plenty of wars going on right now, and there's absolutely nothing preventing you from migrating to one of the realms involved in them.
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vonGenf

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #12: December 28, 2012, 09:29:40 PM »
Play War Islands, then?

I'm certain many people enjoy WI, but it really has nothing to do with Battlemaster. It's a completely different game. It is not a replacement for the old SEI and SWI and does not work as such.

Not that I want them back either. I want RPed wars, not wars imposed from above.

About the rant, I mostly agree. I think, however, that the situation is the logical outcome of long-existing relationships people work hard to create and maintain. I think these relationships are a very interesting part of the game, you can't swipe them away just like that.

What seems to be happening now in Beluaterra is a great example of how to bring war, because it is also based on the same relationships. Just lightning bolting rulers or sending other players to WI would not be playing the game... It would be like tossing the board out of frustration.

TL;DR: you're right about the problem, and it is a question of culture change. Simple solutions won't work.
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Lorgan

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #13: December 28, 2012, 09:37:13 PM »
Man you'd have been disappointed had you had your wish of colonising D'Hara. Seriously. You want to do nothing but fighting, and of all he lands, you want D'HARA?

I disagree. It's central, fortified and rich. D'Hara may not see it as the outstanding military bulwark that it is but the leaders of that planned colony certainly did. In fact, we saw D'Hara as a waste of space in THE prime location on Dwilight for a warmongering, bloodthirsty, battle-hymn singing realm.

Chenier

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Re: Vent Thread
« Reply #14: December 28, 2012, 09:48:34 PM »
I disagree. It's central, fortified and rich. D'Hara may not see it as the outstanding military bulwark that it is but the leaders of that planned colony certainly did. In fact, we saw D'Hara as a waste of space in THE prime location on Dwilight for a warmongering, bloodthirsty, battle-hymn singing realm.

Soldiers don't eat gold.

And if you saw that, then no wonder you are doing such a horrible job as general. D'Hara's an atrocious place to defend. Once the old sea routes are removed, it'll be better, sure, but the sea travel is a new feature.

Had I been a foreign general of a realm that wanted to see D'Hara dead, I would have had the time to destroy D'Hara a thousand times over by today. It was a frigging linear realm, that couldn't scout its borders due to them being sea roads, and that granted far-away kingdoms the ability to launch a surprise attack and begin a takeover before any troops could be mobilized, with the sieging force likely cutting off half of the defenders from accessing the capital to recruit.

We never had a big army because we didn't feel like it. But to think that the islands would have made for a viable warmongering realm is just ridiculous. Even with contracts all over the continent feeding the realm was a bitch. And all it takes for months of efforts to go down the drain is just 1 week of harsh winter. Then you've got a ton of months of no income ahead to rebuild.

But then again, you couldn't even defeat a starved out D'Hara with nothing left but a stronghold and a crappy badland city, with all the might of Solaria and Luria Nova at your disposal. And somehow you'd think you'd be able to make a viable warmongering colony on the isles?

And you say central as if it was some kind of advantage. All it means is that "distance from home" is likely to kick in no matter who you attack and that anybody can backstab you from anywhere at any time.

Perhaps other rulers aren't the problem here, but the ridiculous expectations you make yourselves and your inability to achieve anything with the things you do have.
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