Caelum

[Geronus]

Fair enough.

Im not in Caelum, I can only go on the information I am given.

All I am trying to say is. You peacefully removed him as the ruler, you elected a new one.

What is going after him further going to achieve? Caelum is at a fragile stage, you need all the nobles working together for the common good to go forward. Victus wasnt chosen to be ruler for no reason. Frankly, I fail to see what he has done that is so horrible you need to try and remove his lordship and dukeship from him now.

Dont you think its the realms best interest to work together and get on with things rather than create more unrest and tension in the realm?

Thats all I am trying to get across, other things aside :)

At this point it's not really about being vindictive so much as it is about undoing/fixing/changing what Victus did that caused everyone to start questioning him to begin with. One of those things, the thing that started the whole fiasco, was his creation of a third duchy, contrary to the terms of the treaty. Tsumiki, perhaps wisely, ran for ruler on a platform that included voting as a realm on whether we wanted to keep the third duchy since that was a major point of contention. We then did so, and the vote was decidedly in favor of dissolving it. That requires Victus to, at the very least, step down as Duke and remove Mokut from the Duchy just as Traemlin has removed Eykfar so that it will be empty and can be dissolved.

Tsumiki has made it clear that he is welcome to stay in the realm so long as he plays nice. This is a clear moment where Victus has a choice. He can respect the result of the referendum and Tsumiki's command, or he can defy both. If he does, that is when we would potentially actually discuss what we can do to remove him from power IC, which so far as I know no one in Caelum is currently contemplating. I discussed it here because I believe it is very likely that Victus will refuse to step down, in which case forcing him out will be, as I pointed out, extremely difficult. It's not a foregone conclusion, however. He could surprise me. If he does, then all of this discussion will be moot because we'll likely leave him alone and afford him an opportunity to patch things up with the rest of the realm.

Honestly though, it doesn't sound like that's what's going to happen.

[Indirik]

In all honesty, I understand what you're saying, and you may be right. As far as IC goes... Stability be damned! This is a matter of principles!

Yes, it is obvious that Victus was chosen for a good, from OG and CoH's viewpoint, (and religious) reason. That also make him a prime target for a religious zealot. (And, fwiw, Ralina has said absolutely nothing about the duchy since Victus was removed. She is not driving this in any way.) Not to mention that with the prevailing opinion against Victus now, it makes a good time to go after him, and get someone who has such a bad image out of such a strong position of power, to which most of the realm feels he has no right.

It may go smoothly, it may explode. But it will be intteresting. Caelum will not be just another boring realm for at least the next few weeks.

[Turner]

At this point it's not really about being vindictive so much as it is about undoing/fixing/changing what Victus did that caused everyone to start questioning him to begin with. One of those things, the thing that started the whole fiasco, was his creation of a third duchy, contrary to the terms of the treaty. Tsumiki, perhaps wisely, ran for ruler on a platform that included voting as a realm on whether we wanted to keep the third duchy since that was a major point of contention. We then did so, and the vote was decidedly in favor of dissolving it. That requires Victus to, at the very least, step down as Duke and remove Mokut from the Duchy just as Traemlin has removed Eykfar so that it will be empty and can be dissolved.

Tsumiki has made it clear that he is welcome to stay in the realm so long as he plays nice. This is a clear moment where Victus has a choice. He can respect the result of the referendum and Tsumiki's command, or he can defy both. If he does, that is when we would potentially actually discuss what we can do to remove him from power IC, which so far as I know no one in Caelum is currently contemplating. I discussed it here because I believe it is very likely that Victus will refuse to step down, in which case forcing him out will be, as I pointed out, extremely difficult. It's not a foregone conclusion, however. He could surprise me. If he does, then all of this discussion will be moot because we'll likely leave him alone and afford him an opportunity to patch things up with the rest of the realm.

Honestly though, it doesn't sound like that's what's going to happen.

My whole problem is, the treaty doesnt say Caelum cant have a 3rd duchy or that it must only have 2 duchies as specific decree. Because it makes no mention of those things, I dont think it was fair to condemn Victus over it.

ICly, I can see your points, but I also believe because Victus made a 3rd duchy and condemning him for it, the reaction was all just wrong.

Show me where in the treaty where it says he cant and I will shut up about it :)

PS: If we really want to get picky about the treaty, I will also remind you that is says OG gets to select the ruler and Nothoi gets to select the Judge. Funny how events have unfolded where it is convenient to disregard certain elements of it and claim other aspects of it to be sacred ;)

[Penchant]

My whole problem is, the treaty doesnt say Caelum cant have a 3rd duchy or that it must only have 2 duchies as specific decree. Because it makes no mention of those things, I dont think it was fair to condemn Victus over it.

ICly, I can see your points, but I also believe because Victus made a 3rd duchy and condemning him for it, the reaction was all just wrong.

Show me where in the treaty where it says he cant and I will shut up about it :)

PS: If we really want to get picky about the treaty, I will also remind you that is says OG gets to select the ruler and Nothoi gets to select the Judge. Funny how events have unfolded where it is convenient to disregard certain elements of it and claim other aspects of it to be sacred ;)

This is all moot. It's not that they are any longer forced to abide by the treaty but that no one agreed to a third duchy and they merely see it as Victus being greedy.

[Geronus]

My whole problem is, the treaty doesnt say Caelum cant have a 3rd duchy or that it must only have 2 duchies as specific decree. Because it makes no mention of those things, I dont think it was fair to condemn Victus over it.

ICly, I can see your points, but I also believe because Victus made a 3rd duchy and condemning him for it, the reaction was all just wrong.

Show me where in the treaty where it says he cant and I will shut up about it :)

PS: If we really want to get picky about the treaty, I will also remind you that is says OG gets to select the ruler and Nothoi gets to select the Judge. Funny how events have unfolded where it is convenient to disregard certain elements of it and claim other aspects of it to be sacred ;)

That was indeed the issue that started everything, but that only led several nobles to question what Victus was doing, not protest him. Events certainly escalated from there into something much bigger, but honestly that is as much Victus's fault as anyone's. By the time he got protested out of office, it wasn't about the treaty anymore, it was about all the other things Victus had said and done as a result. I don't think the treaty itself was mentioned in any of the protests.

This is all moot. It's not that they are any longer forced to abide by the treaty but that no one agreed to a third duchy and they merely see it as Victus being greedy.

Not exactly... Maybe one or two nobles thought that way at first, but not enough to get Victus protested out of office. I guess you had to be there to really appreciate the progression of events. As I said though, by the end it really had very little to do with the third duchy or the treaty. That was just the pebble that started the avalanche.

[Penchant]

That was indeed the issue that started everything, but that only led several nobles to question what Victus was doing, not protest him. Events certainly escalated from there into something much bigger, but honestly that is as much Victus's fault as anyone's. By the time he got protested out of office, it wasn't about the treaty anymore, it was about all the other things Victus had said and done as a result. I don't think the treaty itself was mentioned in any of the protests.

Not exactly... Maybe one or two nobles thought that way at first, but not enough to get Victus protested out of office. I guess you had to be there to really appreciate the progression of events. As I said though, by the end it really had very little to do with the third duchy or the treaty. That was just the pebble that started the avalanche.

While I surely would have had to been there to fully understand, I was referring to why the duchy dissolve not the protest.

[Naidraug]

My whole problem is, the treaty doesnt say Caelum cant have a 3rd duchy or that it must only have 2 duchies as specific decree. Because it makes no mention of those things, I dont think it was fair to condemn Victus over it.

ICly, I can see your points, but I also believe because Victus made a 3rd duchy and condemning him for it, the reaction was all just wrong.

Show me where in the treaty where it says he cant and I will shut up about it :)

PS: If we really want to get picky about the treaty, I will also remind you that is says OG gets to select the ruler and Nothoi gets to select the Judge. Funny how events have unfolded where it is convenient to disregard certain elements of it and claim other aspects of it to be sacred ;)

Yes the treaty said that Nothoi and OG would choose judge and ruler, and they did.

But if you want to point it out that nothing in the treaty said that they couldn't create a 3rd duchy, nothing said that they couldn't choose a new ruler and judge.

The 3rd duchy thing is something that was pointed out at first, and Victus excuse wasn't good enough to have support of everyone.

But in the end he went out because of the lack of respect he showed us (both IC and OOC).

[Chaotrance13]

But in the end he went out because of the lack of respect he showed us (both IC and OOC).

The comment he made was after he had been protested. Up until that point he had shown no OOC lack of respect to anyone. So unless there's another OOC reason you protested him out (and there shouldn't even have been one in the first place), that doesn't factor in.

[Naidraug]

The comment he made was after he had been protested. Up until that point he had shown no OOC lack of respect to anyone. So unless there's another OOC reason you protested him out (and there shouldn't even have been one in the first place), that doesn't factor in.

No, there was OOC reasons from banning him. Protested all for IC reasons.

[Nosferatus]

So whos going to step in and restore Cealum acording to the signed treaty?
This is along with Melhed/Thalmarking long standing fued a good reason for an intresting war.
Especially combined with each other.

[Lorgan]

So whos going to step in and restore Cealum acording to the signed treaty?
This is along with Melhed/Thalmarking long standing fued a good reason for an intresting war.
Especially combined with each other.

I thought you wanted 1 vs 1? Or was that just back when Thalmarkin could barely field 10k? ;)

[Nosferatus]

Thats what i mean, if two wars on two or more different spots start, allies can't help each other.

[Indirik]

Pretty much everyone has agreed that the treaty was poorly constructed and no one wants it. It was only ever partially implemented, and significant portions of it were ignored from before the realm was ever even founded. Old Grehk was pretty much the only that cared, and the only thing they cared about was keeping Victus in power to as great an extent as possible.

[Noldorin]

Foreign Leave   (30 minutes ago)
Tsumiki Tenla, Grand Princess of Caelum has abdicated (automatically, due to inactivity).

??? So much for that...

[Draco Tanos]

One of the briefest peacetime reigns ever, I think.