Author Topic: Melees as a tournament event  (Read 3240 times)

pcw27

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Melees as a tournament event
« Topic Start: January 10, 2013, 11:19:01 PM »
Summary: Historically tournaments were typically held as Melees which simulated battles. This could make an interesting new option for tournaments.

Details: to keep it simple the system would work out exactly like normal tournament combat, only using the leadership skill. If we wanted to get fancy there could be a combination of leadership and sword fighting. In the game fluff it could claim that each noble is commanding a squad of lesser gentry.

Benefits: Gives players that have built up their leadership skill a chance to show it off and compete just like players that built up sword fighting or jousting.

Possible Exploits: It might make hosting a tournament to distract from a war more enticing since an event like this might attract Generals or Kings.

Eldargard

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #1: January 11, 2013, 06:07:16 AM »
For some reason I do not recall Leadership being much of a focus in the melee events. Sure, the knights were sorted into two groups but, if I recall correctly, the fighting was largely chaotic and a chance for each knight to show off their combat prowess - not there ability to lead troops. I do not even think anyone below the rank of knight even participated. In the end each noble tried to capture as many other nobles as possible to later ransom. Again, focusing on individual combat and not on leading troops. I would love to hear from someone who has studied this in detail though. I very well may be way off.

GoldPanda

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #2: January 11, 2013, 06:30:56 AM »
A Grand Melee probably looks very much like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkteEFI-PBs
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Nosferatus

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #3: January 11, 2013, 09:27:04 AM »
A Grand Melee probably looks very much like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkteEFI-PBs

That is awesome...
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Eldargard

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #4: January 11, 2013, 07:49:18 PM »
Really? I thought is rather disappointing... I watched a few other clips from the same tournament and I was just plain surprised. Looks like a little too much like football (the American variety). I was also under the impression that knights wore such heavy armor that they could not get up unassisted once downed. I figured such armor would make sprinting  less likely. Those guys are crazy tough though. I would be screaming in pain 30 seconds into it!

BardicNerd

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #5: January 11, 2013, 08:44:03 PM »
Really? I thought is rather disappointing... I watched a few other clips from the same tournament and I was just plain surprised. Looks like a little too much like football (the American variety). I was also under the impression that knights wore such heavy armor that they could not get up unassisted once downed. I figured such armor would make sprinting  less likely. Those guys are crazy tough though. I would be screaming in pain 30 seconds into it!

In what way does it look like American football?  It looks like people fighting and trying to kill each other to me, which is what battles tend to look like. . . .

As for mobility in armor . . . there are a lot of misconceptions about how hard it was to move in armor.  Most all of them are completely and totally untrue.  Sure, it's heavy, and if you're not in good shape and have never worn it before, it's going to hinder you a fair bit, and you'll certainly get tired quicker in it, but armor that makes it hard to do the things you need to do in combat (like running) isn't much use for anything besides looking pretty (and there was armor designed only to look pretty and not be used in combat).  Knights wearing full armor were surprising mobile.


Videos from my summer vacation, for those wanting to see more actual mass combat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmqMbXcCB1M&list=PL34462A6A7C96B941&index=1  (I don't take part in the fighting, for those wondering).

Eldargard

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #6: January 11, 2013, 09:40:33 PM »
Well, I have never worn real life authentic armor. I Would not be surprised if my preconceptions were totally wrong. As far as the football thing goes it is all the mad dashing just to slam into someone and knock them down. It seemed effective though if the goal is indeed to knock them down. I was always under the impression that dehorsing or knocking down an opponent was a valid strategy due to the difficulty of regaining ones feet.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #7: January 11, 2013, 11:33:27 PM »
Bardic, you've apparently never heard of the Battle of Agincourt... that very armor that you're saying isn't as cumbersome as it looks was apparently cumbersome enough to help lead to an English victory thanks to the longbow.

Kwanstein

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #8: January 11, 2013, 11:38:46 PM »
That was because it was muddy.

And also uphill.

Penchant

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #9: January 11, 2013, 11:41:53 PM »
That was because it was muddy.

And also uphill.
Yeah those to things are kinda huge in battle.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #10: January 11, 2013, 11:43:46 PM »
Yes, and cumbersome, heavy armor doesn't combine real well with that...

Draco Tanos

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #11: January 12, 2013, 01:29:26 AM »
Nor do simple leather boots when the mud is reported to go beyond your shins.

pcw27

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #12: January 12, 2013, 05:24:51 AM »
A Grand Melee probably looks very much like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkteEFI-PBs

Awesome. Love that song now too.

I think this video supports my idea because that definitely takes some teamwork.


Well, I have never worn real life authentic armor. I Would not be surprised if my preconceptions were totally wrong. As far as the football thing goes it is all the mad dashing just to slam into someone and knock them down. It seemed effective though if the goal is indeed to knock them down. I was always under the impression that dehorsing or knocking down an opponent was a valid strategy due to the difficulty of regaining ones feet.

It would still be hard to get up, but a fallen knight wouldn't be rendered as helpless as a turtle on it's back or anything. A suit of armor weighed between 40 and 60 lbs. So imagine getting up with that much extra weight. It will slow you down but it won't pin you to the ground.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 05:31:45 AM by pcw27 »

Shizzle

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #13: January 12, 2013, 12:52:25 PM »
So how do they decide you're dead in those enactments?

Also, melees were not happening in the same time as the type of tournament we see in BM. I though the game's setting was more going to the Late Medieval period.

Draco Tanos

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Re: Melees as a tournament event
« Reply #14: January 12, 2013, 01:01:26 PM »
It would still be hard to get up, but a fallen knight wouldn't be rendered as helpless as a turtle on it's back or anything. A suit of armor weighed between 40 and 60 lbs. So imagine getting up with that much extra weight. It will slow you down but it won't pin you to the ground.

What a lot of people seem to forget/neglect is that full suits of armor weren't just mass produced pieces of metal slapped together for anyone to wear.  If you were putting an investment into these (which a full suit most certainly was) it was custom tailored to the shape of whomever it was for.  In a properly fitted suit of armor, a person could move seamlessly.  It wasn't as clunky as so many more modern sources make it out to be.