Feudal Hierarchy - Respect/Deference

[Dante Silverfire]

I was wondering how different people viewed interactions between current and former members in the feudal hierarchy and whether or not people felt that holding a position formerly offered the character any manner of additional respect on top of that with regards to their current posts.

Also, are non-feudal titles and positions worth anything regards to manner of hierarchy respect or deference in comparison to feudal titles?

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To be more specific:

Would you consider former rulers of your realm to always hold the level of respect or deference of that of ruler? (or perhaps they'd be viewed on par as current dukes? Lords? regardless of current feudal holdings?)

What about former rulers of other realms?

Do former dukes or lords mean anything to you, or do you only view them by their current ranking? (For instance, My duke character calls all former lords of *his* duchy "Lord ____" instead of "Sir" or "Dame" or "Knight" even if they no longer hold a lord title)

Do foreign dignitaries of non-feudal titles hold any particular manner of respect to you? Would you perhaps place any ambassador of a foreign realm with the same level of respect as perhaps one of your dukes? (Address them as "Your Grace, Ambassador _____" Instead of just " Sir Kepler, Ambassador of Keplerstan") I don't, but perhaps some do.

Would you grant founders of religion a measure of respect equivalent to a ruler or perhaps a duke regardless of their feudal ranking or if you're a member of their religion? For example, does The Prophet of SA deserve to be treated with a measure of respect by non-SA rulers of at least placing him equal in power as a secular ruler when discussing things? Would his regent deserve the same? (I personally think that all religion founders should be granted that measure of respect, unless you're trying to intentionally anger them)

Also, feel free to bring up other cases I missed.

[Draco Tanos]

My characters tend to call former monarchs Prince(ess).  We've codified this in Westmoor on IC somewhat, as officially all former rulers are to be called such over their landed titles.  Other realms are much the same, as far as monarchies go.

Republics and Monarchies?  Tend to use "Lord" if they don't have any other titles. 

Former Dukes and Lords in general are generally continued to be called Lord by my characters.  Unless they don't like them, then they're just Sir or Dame.

Foreign dignitaries tend to get referred to by any other title they may have.

Religious leaders?  If I knew what to call them.  The CoH has specific forms of address for our ranks.  At least some.  Still need to work on others.

[Foxglove]

Most of my characters call a noble who hasn't got an estate nobleman or noblewoman regardless of whether they're newly created or they've moved over from another realm (reflecting that they're not yet within the formal hierarchy so they're due a lesser level of respect).

If a noble has been a longterm Duke or Duchess, several of my characters would continue to address them by that title even if they were reduced to a knight or dame as a mark of respect. If I know another character is a former Duke or Duchess, then Lord or Lady would be the minimum I'd use. "Your Grace",  I'd keep for a current Duke.

Former rulers of the realm, or former rulers of other realms, I'd probably also address as Lord or Lady if they didn't have any other high-status title such as Duke, Earl, Baron, etc. Unless I'm writing as a character who wanted to make a point by addressing them as Sir or Dame.

Foreign dignitaries are addressed by title - Ambassador, etc, and are treated with a high level of respect even if the realms involved are at war as long as they themselves conduct themselves in a polite way. But, again, this depends on the character I'm using. One of my characters would be just as likely to send a foreign ambassador back minus his head if he felt the ambassador wasn't conducting himself properly.

Elders of your own religion should always be treated with the respect due to lords as a minimum. If the religion has a leader, they should be considered to be on a par with a king. Priests should have the status of lords within their own religion (mostly, other characters don't give priests of their own religion anything near the level of respect they should be due). Priests of other religions - it would depend on what my character's religion thought of the other faith.

[Bedwyr]

I was wondering how different people viewed interactions between current and former members in the feudal hierarchy and whether or not people felt that holding a position formerly offered the character any manner of additional respect on top of that with regards to their current posts.

Only when my characters want it to.  I.e. I would grant them the old title as a courtesy title, unless the character wasn't considered worthy of the courtesy.  That's only if they don't have an existing title, or if I'm listing full titles (normally I just do the most important title of a person, or the most relevant title, but in a treaty or other formal context I would list "former King of Keplerstan").

Also, are non-feudal titles and positions worth anything regards to manner of hierarchy respect or deference in comparison to feudal titles?

Do the titles have any real power, or does my character want to flatter the title-holder?  If yes to either question, then of course.

Would you consider former rulers of your realm to always hold the level of respect or deference of that of ruler? (or perhaps they'd be viewed on par as current dukes? Lords? regardless of current feudal holdings?)

They are Royals, which I have always considered to be theoretically second only to the sitting Ruler (with the above exception if my character thinks they are unworthy).  But again, actual titles always take precedence to courtesy titles.

What about former rulers of other realms?

Too many other variables.  Their relationship with the current Ruler, my relationship with them/current Ruler/realm as a whole, in addition to my usual caveat on current titles.

Do former dukes or lords mean anything to you, or do you only view them by their current ranking? (For instance, My duke character calls all former lords of *his* duchy "Lord ____" instead of "Sir" or "Dame" or "Knight" even if they no longer hold a lord title)

A generic Lord or Lady such and such is pretty standard for me, yes.

Do foreign dignitaries of non-feudal titles hold any particular manner of respect to you? Would you perhaps place any ambassador of a foreign realm with the same level of respect as perhaps one of your dukes? (Address them as "Your Grace, Ambassador _____" Instead of just " Sir Kepler, Ambassador of Keplerstan") I don't, but perhaps some do.

Ambassador Kepler is how I have always done it, but Dukes I just do Duke Kepler as well, so I guess that's the same as how I address a Duke.

Would you grant founders of religion a measure of respect equivalent to a ruler or perhaps a duke regardless of their feudal ranking or if you're a member of their religion? For example, does The Prophet of SA deserve to be treated with a measure of respect by non-SA rulers of at least placing him equal in power as a secular ruler when discussing things? Would his regent deserve the same? (I personally think that all religion founders should be granted that measure of respect, unless you're trying to intentionally anger them)

Hell yes, unless trying to be intentionally disrespectful.  I would consider the head of SA to be the most powerful character in the game (note: I know nothing about internal SA dynamics, and for the moment don't care) and treat them accordingly.  Prophets of religions with anything beyond two people I'd treat like Dukes, and Prophets of religions with anything approaching a realm (call it a minimum of a dozen nobles and 50K peasants) I would treat as equivalent to a Ruler.

Also, feel free to bring up other cases I missed.

Church Elders are one step down from their Prophet (so Dukes to a King, Lords to a Duke, or in the special case of SA I would consider the Elders on par with a Ruler).  Priests of my religion depend on the specific case, but generally at least the level of Lord/Ambassador, possibly more if they are considered to be particularly holy.

[Indirik]

The problem is that with the age of most characters, the reduced number of players, just about everyone has a veritable plethora of former titles to their name. I can only imagine the number of people that have held council titles... therefore, I always use someone's current title, unless they are someone that my character respects, and they have no title. Then they get "lord/lady". I will use titles from the religion my character is in, if it is a message about religion. For other religions, I ignore them, as they are, at best, irrelevant to my character. (Unless my character is contacting them in their religious capacity, on behalf of his own.)

As far as deference/respect for other characters, past titles are usually ignored, especially if they are from foreign realms. (See above re: plethora of titles.)

However, if you really need to flatter someone, you can dig for that past glory. But usually, it's irrelevant.

[Chenier]

For people with a bunch of titles, I usually address them depending on the context. To the same religious elder/lord/ambassador/guild elder, I'll use the religious rank for religious talks, guild ranks for guild talks, ambassador title for diplomacy talks, lord title for unrelated formal talks, etc. Saves writing down a thousand titles whenever I want to refer to the person. That's just a personnal habit, though.

As for the rest... I think it depends on what the desired impact is. I don't think there is one single proper way to deal with all of these questions. Some realms have set up their own customs for this, some have even legislated on it. Otherwise, there's isn't a single "right" way to deal with the titles, but many legitimate ways with various subtleties and likely impacts.

[Dishman]

It is a good question. I think a lot could be figured out by how one person addresses another. Not to mention that former title holders have more weight behind them (dealing with and ruling over more people, more familiarity with rulership dynamics, etc). The titles are mostly arbitrary themselves, it's what the title infers the person has done.

Personally, one of my characters is likely to try to use every single title they know about...the other will make the barest effort not to offend.

[Dante Silverfire]

I like the statement made that it depends upon whether you like the character or not. For me personally, that makes no difference. All of my characters use titles to their utmost respect while in public. Granted, one does it because he's honorable, the other does it because he realizes it can be used as a form of mockery.

I also wonder do people make a difference between how they address characters in public and private? My character Merlin will quite often seek to "break down" the use of titles in conversations with those he wants to view him as a friend or that he views as a friend. For instance he'll address them as "Dear friend", or "My friend", or simply leave off any address at all. Sometimes he'll use just their name "Kepler." This has had mixed results. Sometimes players will respond in kind, sometimes they'll absolutely refuse to drop titles.

[Bedwyr]

I also wonder do people make a difference between how they address characters in public and private? My character Merlin will quite often seek to "break down" the use of titles in conversations with those he wants to view him as a friend or that he views as a friend. For instance he'll address them as "Dear friend", or "My friend", or simply leave off any address at all. Sometimes he'll use just their name "Kepler." This has had mixed results. Sometimes players will respond in kind, sometimes they'll absolutely refuse to drop titles.

All the time.  Private address is often much less formal, often dropping everything else and just using "Lord" or "Lady" as a generic stand-in for all titles, or if particularly intimate just the name or "Dear friend" etc.  You knew you were in good with Jenred if he addressed you as just first name, because that was an invitation for the recipient to do the same, and Jenred was very, very attached to his titles.

[Penchant]

Another thing is the rest of the realm council. Do you consider them all to be on par with ruler? Judge and general but not banker? I ask as I am banker in one realm and was referred to my title and name which is normal, but it was followed by your eminence and that was from a ruler of a foreign realm. I did give him a gift (the beginning of a wiki page for a new realm that I refered to as the book of (realm name)), so that may have been the reason for the added part but nonetheless what are your thoughts on this?

[Dante Silverfire]

Another thing is the rest of the realm council. Do you consider them all to be on par with ruler? Judge and general but not banker? I ask as I am banker in one realm and was referred to my title and name which is normal, but it was followed by your eminence and that was from a ruler of a foreign realm. I did give him a gift (the beginning of a wiki page for a new realm that I refered to as the book of (realm name)), so that may have been the reason for the added part but nonetheless what are your thoughts on this?

I consider only the ruler to be a significant position in terms of social standing in the feudal hierarchy. Ruler stands over Dukes. I consider the rest of the council to be between Dukes and lords.

[Bedwyr]

I consider only the ruler to be a significant position in terms of social standing in the feudal hierarchy. Ruler stands over Dukes. I consider the rest of the council to be between Dukes and lords.

Heavily depends on the realm and people.  I've been in realms where random Barons and Counts were clearly more powerful than the Banker or General, and in others where Dukes walked in tiptoes around both.

Judge is usually second only to the Ruler in realm, but depends a lot how foreigners will treat them.

[Dishman]

I consider only the ruler to be a significant position in terms of social standing in the feudal hierarchy. Ruler stands over Dukes. I consider the rest of the council to be between Dukes and lords.

I wonder how often you've told a judge that.

Although It depends on the circumstance and the realm setup, I consider power to be what makes the feudal hierarchy. Ruler>Judge>Duke>Marshal>Banker>Lord>Knight. Although I'm not really sure about the Marshal/General....still haven't seen a speck of war.

[Dante Silverfire]

I wonder how often you've told a judge that.

Heavily depends on the realm and people.  I've been in realms where random Barons and Counts were clearly more powerful than the Banker or General, and in others where Dukes walked in tiptoes around both.

Judge is usually second only to the Ruler in realm, but depends a lot how foreigners will treat them.

Okay, you're right it heavily depends upon the realm, but it also depends upon the characters in those positions. If one of my characters is the Judge you can bet they're strength is second only to the ruler. (If not stronger than the ruler).

However, in some realms, I've easily seen the other council positions be weak. I'm talking about sheer respect only from their position. There are other intangible reasons to show respect, but I won't give them that much based purely on holding that post. For instance, I consider Merlin in Coria to be stronger in power than the judge easily. However, he's Duke of the strongest duchy in a two duchy realm. He has personal fealty of two-thirds of the realm.

Now, take a much larger realm and the judge is stronger. In a monarchy, a judge is stronger than they are perhaps in a Republic, because a strong judge is needed to rival a strong ruler.

[Penchant]

I wonder how often you've told a judge that.

Although It depends on the circumstance and the realm setup, I consider power to be what makes the feudal hierarchy. Ruler>Judge>Duke>Marshal>Banker>Lord>Knight. Although I'm not really sure about the Marshal/General....still haven't seen a speck of war.

My thoughts on realm council are what you said except General resides above marshal which you excluded but he has authority or everyone except ruler as far as military goes especially in times of war. And banker would more of equal to marshal and above dukes in food crises, both real wide or when it only pertains to a single region, though you have a bit more authority when it is one of the duke's regions as he cares more and will thus allow more authority.