What makes a good BM religion?

[Anaris]

Because I can't even count the number of suggestions that have been made over the years, by various people, to improve the religion game.

I can't count the number of really dumb suggestions for all parts of the game that have been made. Some of them over and over again, without regard for the obvious exploits or the detriments to other parts of the game.

Just because people want something to be a certain way doesn't mean that way will be better. I can't speak for Canada, but if you asked every American if they would rather pay no taxes, you'd get a vast majority saying "yes", despite what that would mean for government and services. People are not always the best judges of what changes are best, because they don't think things through.

Furthermore, I am not in the least convinced that the primary reason that religion has problems catching on well in BM is the guild-based structure of religions. In fact, I already laid out what I think the only way is to make religion feel close to as important as it was in the real world, and not so much just like stories that our players made up, and it has very little to do with the hierarchical structure.

[vonGenf]

In an effort to simultaneously derail a discussion about precisely how much the dev team cares about religion and toot my own horn, what are people's thoughts on these?

That rail looks grassy, and it wants wear.

"Exhort the faithful against their lord"
When used in a region that has a lord not of your faith, it encourages the followers of your religion to resist the control of the lord (and by extension, realm).  Control is lowered proportionally by the percentage of followers in the region, and once beyond a certain minimal percentage, there is an increasing chance of a rogue militia unit forming to actively fight.

This would be an option that doesn't require the absolutely dominating percentage of followers that some of the other options do, could be very useful in holy wars, and fits with what Priests in BM are supposed to be able to do and what priests in history could do.

What is the difference between this and "Cause Unrest"?

"Assert divine right: Purge the heretics/Protect the faithful"
Priest options to assist in takeovers.  Both fear and sympathy based options, and I would suggest having their impact on followers tied to the success of the TO.  If the TO succeeds, then the percentage of the succeess due to religious options equates to percentage increase in followers (clearly, you were right), and similarly, if the TO fails it causes losses (clearly, you were wrong).  H/P gains/losses should similarly happen.  Priests are very publicly putting their reputation and influence on the line for this.

I actually enjoy the fact that priests options are completely detached from military game mechanics. However, considering that this only involves TO and not battles.... I see how it could be interesting, as long as it does not start a slippery slope towards the priest-as-warlock idea.

"Repurpose shrines/temples"
You should be able to convert shrines (percentage chance the shrine is just destroyed) and temples (percentage chance temple loses one or more levels) of other faiths.  Likely to cause a religious riot, friendly troops can help suppress.  Serious historical accuracy here, the number of shrines/gods/temples that Christianity in particular assimilated is vast, and the Hagia Sophia is the most prominent example I can think of.

The problem I have with this one is that it should really be only possible for the Lord of the region. The Hagia Sophia was repurposed after the conquest of Constantinople, it's not like a foreign rogue imam led a mob and took it over.

"Call for martyrs"
Fill RC's faster.  Very straightforward, also accurate (allowing for how BM recruitment works).

This is a good idea, probably only useful in desperate times, which is when people would be turning to religions for help.

[Vellos]

Priests aiding friendly TOs makes sense.

I'm having a hard time understanding what a priest could plausibly do to help unfriendly TOs.

[Indirik]

Play Good Cop in a Good Cop/Bad Cop scenario?

[vonGenf]

I'm having a hard time understanding what a priest could plausibly do to help unfriendly TOs.

Fire and Brimstone works fine.

Leviticus 26:7-8

And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

[Bedwyr]

What is the difference between this and "Cause Unrest"?

Is there an existing Cause Unrest option?  If so, awesome!  (You can see how often I've used offensive Priest mechanics.)

I actually enjoy the fact that priests options are completely detached from military game mechanics. However, considering that this only involves TO and not battles.... I see how it could be interesting, as long as it does not start a slippery slope towards the priest-as-warlock idea.

God yes, TO's only not actual fighting, and no magic warlock priests.  Priests have perfectly good influence options of their own historically, no need to raise the fantasy level of the game higher than it already is.

The problem I have with this one is that it should really be only possible for the Lord of the region. The Hagia Sophia was repurposed after the conquest of Constantinople, it's not like a foreign rogue imam led a mob and took it over.

Fair point.  I was thinking of offensive uses of religion in general, and I think you are right that it would be better for a region lord to repurpose temples.  Unless...What if we just make it a requirement that you can only repurpose a structure to the faith of the current lord?  That would actually make the most sense, I think.

This is a good idea, probably only useful in desperate times, which is when people would be turning to religions for help.

Precisely!  Plus, highly historically accurate.  Happened all the damn time.  Still does, at that.

Priests aiding friendly TOs makes sense.

I'm having a hard time understanding what a priest could plausibly do to help unfriendly TOs.

Either Indirik or vonGenf's suggestions work.  Offer sanctuary and gain gratitude, offer to mediate with the invading troops, help ease the suffering...Or...Lead a mob to burn out the tax collectors of the old regime who are clearly Satan's minions (never mind that half of them are part of our church, ignore the man behind the curtain), convert and be spared the sword, inquisitions to root our heresy and anarchists (fighting against the proper order is heresy, right?)...

The possibilities really are endless.  I can keep going if you like.

[Telrunya]

I can't see the option right now, but from way back I know there is a Cause Unrest option for Priests (The opposite being Calm Peasants). It lowers Morale and Control in the region and is not a very costly option. I found it to be one of the more useful options for Priests (Since raising or lowering sympathy generally makes you lose more followers and is now outdone by Ambassadors if you have the gold) and can be a very potent tool for regions that are already not doing too good. It's also an excellent way to prepare a region for a RTO if you're left alone, since you need to have Control around Province for it to work.

[vonGenf]

Is there an existing Cause Unrest option?  If so, awesome!  (You can see how often I've used offensive Priest mechanics.)

Under "Influence followers" you have the following options:

scare
By spreading tales of doom and destruction, you will cause morale in the region to fall.

calm
The opposite of scaring people, you can calm them by telling them about the mercy and strength of their gods. This will slightly improve morale and very slightly reduce independence.

cause unrest
Gathering enough of the believers, you can try to stir them up into a frenzy and cause civil unrest in the region. This will raise independence and lower production. There is a small risk that the local militia will arrest you.
 

badmouth realm
You can use religion as a political tool. Speaking about the sins of a realm, or that the gods despise it and its government will cause the locals to reduce loyalty or sympathy towards that realm.
Note that clashes with politics cause casualties on both sides. This option will cause you to lose more followers than the simple ones.

laud realm
You can use religion as a political tool. Speaking about the virtues of a realm, or how the gods approve of them will cause the locals to improve their opinion of them, raising loyalty or sympathy.
Note that clashes with politics cause casualties on both sides. This option will cause you to lose more followers than the simple ones.

All these options are reported to the people present in the region, and their success depends on the number of followers are your oratory skill. They also all lead you to lose followers.

Fair point.  I was thinking of offensive uses of religion in general, and I think you are right that it would be better for a region lord to repurpose temples.  Unless...What if we just make it a requirement that you can only repurpose a structure to the faith of the current lord?  That would actually make the most sense, I think.

That would make it realistic too. I'm not sure if you should need the Lord to approve of the conversion, or if his appointment is enough to assume he wants the temple converted.... Tolerating a temple of another religion can be politically important, but allowing priests to forcefully convert the temple may lead to interesting results.

Edit: "Realistic, also" and not "realistic too much"

[Chenier]

I can't see the option right now, but from way back I know there is a Cause Unrest option for Priests (The opposite being Calm Peasants). It lowers Morale and Control in the region and is not a very costly option. I found it to be one of the more useful options for Priests (Since raising or lowering sympathy generally makes you lose more followers and is now outdone by Ambassadors if you have the gold) and can be a very potent tool for regions that are already not doing too good. It's also an excellent way to prepare a region for a RTO if you're left alone, since you need to have Control around Province for it to work.

To be more accurate:

The first two abilities a priest gets is calm followers, and scare followers. The first improves morale and can (very) slightly improve control (apparently). The second just reduces morale.
Then, the priest can cause unrest, which lowers control and slightly reduces production (apparently).
Then there's also laud and badmouth, much like ambassadors.

All abilities rarely have an impact of greater than 1 or 2%, from my I've seen, and regularly cost you to lose 5-15% of your followers in the region (depending on region population). At low follower %, it doesn't seem worth it, but I never noticed any significant difference in impact between 50% following and 90% following.

I've only used such abilities occasionally, however, because undoing months of preaching work never seemed worth a few percentage points that tend to recuperate right after. Heck, even when I had majority religion, and one of Aurvandil's regions was at province and hateful, it took many turns to cause Maeotis to revolt using cause unrest, and I'm not at all convinced that my actions helped the revolt in any way. You also have a far greater risk of arrest with cause unrest than with scare followers, and if caught on the ask you can be banned.

In other words, high investment (in preaching time), high cost (in followers lost), high risk (in capture doing the preaching and in getting captured and banned on the act), and little reward (in terms of actual damage inflicted). That's priest actions for you.

[vonGenf]

it took many turns to cause Maeotis to revolt using cause unrest,

That's good enough for me. Timely used, it can be powerful.

[Telrunya]

I must have been confused with the options, thanks for the clarifications. The first three options vonGenf give are indeed the ones I meant (scare and cause unrest I assumed to be one option). Those three options generally also don't cause you to lose too many followers. It's the lauding and badmouthing that have a high cost in followers (It took me a while to get Aix with 10%-15% following to be indifferent towards Ibladesh), so if you have the gold, definitely go for an Ambassador. I don't think the latter two are worth it. The first three are though.

These options do require you to keep it up for a bit to see the effects, but when you do, you can easily get any Core Region to Province (I've haven't been arrested due it, the chance of capture should be small as said in the description), which makes the region ripe for a RTO (And that is with a stable region! You're the most powerful where a region is already suffering a bit and you can just escalate the problems there, that is where your true powers lay). If the region borders faithful regions, there probably will already be a following there without any work. Obviously, don't do them where the Army is, aim for the border regions. If you're fighting a big Realm, that should be easy. The risk and follower cost should be very manageable if you restrict yourself to those options.

[Penchant]

That's good enough for me. Timely used, it can be powerful.

He also said he doesn't think his work did anything meaningful considering I believe the region was also starving at the time and it took that long.

[Chenier]

He also said he doesn't think his work did anything meaningful considering I believe the region was also starving at the time and it took that long.

Indeed I did. Way to selectively quote me to twist my words there, VonGenf.

The region was in atrocious shape. I was surprised it even last so long, even without my work I would have expected it to revolt earlier.

I must have been confused with the options, thanks for the clarifications. The first three options vonGenf give are indeed the ones I meant (scare and cause unrest I assumed to be one option). Those three options generally also don't cause you to lose too many followers. It's the lauding and badmouthing that have a high cost in followers (It took me a while to get Aix with 10%-15% following to be indifferent towards Ibladesh), so if you have the gold, definitely go for an Ambassador. I don't think the latter two are worth it. The first three are though.

These options do require you to keep it up for a bit to see the effects, but when you do, you can easily get any Core Region to Province (I've haven't been arrested due it, the chance of capture should be small as said in the description), which makes the region ripe for a RTO (And that is with a stable region! You're the most powerful where a region is already suffering a bit and you can just escalate the problems there, that is where your true powers lay). If the region borders faithful regions, there probably will already be a following there without any work. Obviously, don't do them where the Army is, aim for the border regions. If you're fighting a big Realm, that should be easy. The risk and follower cost should be very manageable if you restrict yourself to those options.

My experience with the first three is also high follower losses for 1 or 2% changes.

[vonGenf]

and I'm not at all convinced that my actions helped the revolt in any way.

I used these actions too, and I am convinced that my actions did lead to game mechanics effect. The cost in followers is surprisingly high, but if it makes a region revolt in the direction you wish too, then it's a cost worth paying.

My experience with the first three is also high follower losses for 1 or 2% changes.

Is that for 1 hour preaching or a full day? I am quite sure for a region in the middle range, I could get it up or down one notch per day (i.e. from Friendly to Indifferent). Of course, if you start from 100% or from 0%, then changes are harder.

[Chenier]

The region was in such a bad shape that it should have revolted on its own. I have a hard time seeing the followers lost as a price worthy of anything.

As for my actions, I never use 1 hour. maximum hours almost all of the time.