What makes a good BM religion?

[Eldargard]

I think that the mechanics make it possible for a religion to grow into something that people care about and respect. From what I have heard about SA, people truly do gain from joining. Minor knights gain access to promotions within their realm. A powerful ruler can gain the aid of a block of powerful nations. SA can declare a crusade against a nation or religion without fear that they will be torn up when the rest of the island decided to tear them up for being a bad religion. This is all possible, however, because some very capable people have politiced their way into having the support of rulers, councils and entire nations. They have a lot of influence over secular dealings.

My opinion, however, is that the odds of another religion managing to accomplish anything like that is slim. The closest that one might come is a state religion. Even then, the fact that the religion and stat coincide does not make it much different than simply being in a realm without much influence. I think that if we want more religions to have the clout to be openly hostile, prejudiced, and all that, we need to gice religions better tools and most are simple unable to come close to those things without some help.

Just my initial thoughts...

[Norrel]

Religions should produce something. People tend to behave as game mechanics incentivize; why not something like civ 5's faith mechanic? Obviously it shouldn't produce gold but allowing it to produce another currency entirely allows it to have some sway. Nobles IRL cared about their faiths because it gave them divine right and sway over the peasantry.

[Ketchum]

More accurately:

Religions in BM that try to create conflict right out of the gate die on the vine. No one wants those religions around, unless they're created as a state religion. Trying to create one in a realm that already has any religions in it will be nearly impossible. Trying to get one into a realm other than the one it was created in similarly.

If you want to create religious conflict in BM, you first need to have a strong, established religion. Then you declare that another religion is evil, or a realm over there (that also happens to be refusing you entry) has blasphemed against the True Gods, and all the faithful must rise up against them. Or even that Duke Nogoodnik of Keplerstan is a heretic who must be executed.

You are spot-on for this one fact. In fact, when my character Ash was a Judge, even though he was Path of Chivalry religion follower, he allows another religion to be founded: The Blind God religion founded by Solari (I miss Remi, please come back )

Now our realm having half followers following Path of Chivalry and another half following Blind God. The nobles even talking about making both Path of Chivalry and Blind God as state religions in the realm. That speak volume about Ash neutrality as Judge

[Norrel]

Now our realm having half followers following Path of Chivalry and another half following Blind God. The nobles even talking about making both Path of Chivalry and Blind God as state religions in the realm. That speak volume about Ash neutrality as Judge

Why do many players take OOC pride in having detached, neutral, peaceful characters? I'm genuinely curious, because it's a trend I've seen in many places.

[Draco Tanos]

Why do many players take OOC pride in having detached, neutral, peaceful characters? I'm genuinely curious, because it's a trend I've seen in many places.

And unfortunately, those of us who'd like to drive a religion they lead to hold a harder stance really can't without bleeding a lot of followers because of stances like that.  So with the CoH, I have to try to keep us as defensive in mindset rather than as aggressive as I'd like at times.

Too many players in BM try to bring "religious freedom" or "religion shouldn't be in politics" arguments into the game.  It's hard to dispute it because they act like you're the crazy one.  *sigh*

[Chenier]

I think nobles in BM don't car about religion, because of the added authority over you an the lack of benefit but presence of penalty (religion does something bad, you can look bad because of it and the major one of gold. You need to give gold to expand and maintain but expanding your religion really gives no benefit to any but those on top because they look god for making a large religion. It's like a ruler and dukes trying to get more nobles but they don't tax any of their peasants so no one gets anything but they still need to pay for troops and pay to maintain their regions. Sure they have have an interesting role play in the start but since they don't have much nobles, the ruler and dukes aren't even that active either. That is how religion currently is done, IMO.

I agree. Also, religions being total money pits drive away more ambitious people like myself. I've just grown really tired of having weak priests and being forced to spend thousands and thousands of gold just to keep the faith dominant in the regions I operate. It's really reward-free in most cases.

If faith was at least gold-positive, then at least it would really incite people to spread the faith, especially beyond the realm's border, in order to cash in more gold.

I have been having my characters join the less tolerant religions, or those that look from the outside like they would be more confrontational. (Church of Sartan and Hemaism)

Hemaism? Confrontational? You mean, you joined the sole theocracy of BT, who worship a god of destruction and have for years and years and years, and yet have never done any religious persecution (aside from maybe when they were founded), and that had like two lines of wiki text prior to the third invasion, and just a few more since? Oh yea, Hemaism totally sounds like the most exciting religion ever...

And unfortunately, those of us who'd like to drive a religion they lead to hold a harder stance really can't without bleeding a lot of followers because of stances like that.  So with the CoH, I have to try to keep us as defensive in mindset rather than as aggressive as I'd like at times.

Too many players in BM try to bring "religious freedom" or "religion shouldn't be in politics" arguments into the game.  It's hard to dispute it because they act like you're the crazy one.  *sigh*

Keeping religion out of politics is totally understandable... religion founders can't be rebelled against, can't be protested out, there are never any elections... To give a religion political power is to give one guy unprecedented and unrevokable power. Who wants yet another boss? One they don't ever get to chose? One who never has to really care for public opinion, because, after all, he's a prophet sent by the gods and they've told him the Truth and the True Path to follow?

I've tried uniting various faiths into various umbrella multi-diety pantheons. But it never worked. The main obstacle? It's not the change of one's religion name, or the loss of the followers, or even the loss of the thousands of gold's worth of temples. It's that all ambitious religious types want to be at the top. Nobody wants to be second rank to anyone else. Why? Because whoever's at the top can demote everyone else as they please. And nobody holds that kind of power over the people below them anywhere else than in guilds and religions. When sharing political power, it's easy for someone to agree to let the other be ruler in exchange for being duke or judge. Because the ruler can't just take it away. However, nobody wants to cede their religious authority to have rank #2, because in terms of security of keeping one's power, it's the same as having rank #89. And if you didn't want to become a priest, it's the same as having rank #99. As such, it's pretty much impossible to get ambitious people to work together in any established continent to create something to be reckoned with, because there can only be one person at rank #1.

[Anaris]

Regarding the "people don't want to join a hostile religion" thing:

A huge part of the reason religion in BM is treated so differently than religion was—and is!—in real life is because of the attitude that it's something you join. It's a club. A social gathering. A political party. And we, the players, all know with absolute certainty that every single aspect of every BM religion was created by other players.

This means that attempts to make religions that take hard-line stances on anything are nearly always doomed to fail, because the players didn't grow up being taught that that was reality.

Frankly, I don't believe there is any way to replicate that sort of feeling and sociopolitical dynamic with player-generated religions. The only way to achieve anything close to it is to have there be a relatively small set of game-mechanic religions, that are consistent across all continents, imposed by the GMs, and not subject to change in more than relatively minor points by their earthly representatives. And maybe have some game mechanics backing up their reality (though ideally, those would be pretty secret, more superstition than obvious reality—until you run into one yourself).

[Vellos]

Regarding the "people don't want to join a hostile religion" thing:

A huge part of the reason religion in BM is treated so differently than religion was—and is!—in real life is because of the attitude that it's something you join. It's a club. A social gathering. A political party. And we, the players, all know with absolute certainty that every single aspect of every BM religion was created by other players.

This means that attempts to make religions that take hard-line stances on anything are nearly always doomed to fail, because the players didn't grow up being taught that that was reality.

Frankly, I don't believe there is any way to replicate that sort of feeling and sociopolitical dynamic with player-generated religions. The only way to achieve anything close to it is to have there be a relatively small set of game-mechanic religions, that are consistent across all continents, imposed by the GMs, and not subject to change in more than relatively minor points by their earthly representatives. And maybe have some game mechanics backing up their reality (though ideally, those would be pretty secret, more superstition than obvious reality—until you run into one yourself).

Or give priests an ability to write scrolls.

[Kwanstein]

That's a good idea (the scrolls, that is)... combine it with the faith-based currency idea, so that you gain faith for having religious sway, and then can spend that faith on believable and practicable military applications, such as scrolls. It would give incentive for religions to become more confrontational, as well as give them a stronger, more direct role in what battlemaster is fundamentally about; war.

[Indirik]

Hemaism? Confrontational? You mean, you joined the sole theocracy of BT, who worship a god of destruction and have for years and years and years, and yet have never done any religious persecution (aside from maybe when they were founded), and that had like two lines of wiki text prior to the third invasion, and just a few more since? Oh yea, Hemaism totally sounds like the most exciting religion ever...

It *should* be intolerant. It is a religion worshiping "The Destroyer", damnit. Where is all this BS tolerance and friendship crap coming from?

[Norrel]

That's a good idea (the scrolls, that is)... combine it with the faith-based currency idea, so that you gain faith for having religious sway, and then can spend that faith on believable and practicable military applications, such as scrolls. It would give incentive for religions to become more confrontational, as well as give them a stronger, more direct role in what battlemaster is fundamentally about; war.

I was thinking that you could more spend faith on passive bonuses to all members of the faith, or instant cash-ins like buying a holy order or spawning some militia or something.

[Chenier]

It *should* be intolerant. It is a religion worshiping "The Destroyer", damnit. Where is all this BS tolerance and friendship crap coming from?

What reality should be and what it is often differs. I tend to consider this to be one of these cases... Even with unlimited power, Hemaism pretty much had to be dragged by their daimon masters to do anything with it, and even then did very very little.

Religions should produce something. People tend to behave as game mechanics incentivize; why not something like civ 5's faith mechanic? Obviously it shouldn't produce gold but allowing it to produce another currency entirely allows it to have some sway. Nobles IRL cared about their faiths because it gave them divine right and sway over the peasantry.

This actually sounds interesting... What if religions had some kind of bonuses or special mechanics? Perhaps ones to chose depending on what kind of faith you want?

It wouldn't need to be D&D-esque with all kinds of magical powers. Civ5 does give an interesting mechanic for religion, and it's all pretty neutral and mundane.

[Anaris]

This actually sounds interesting... What if religions had some kind of bonuses or special mechanics? Perhaps ones to chose depending on what kind of faith you want?

It wouldn't need to be D&D-esque with all kinds of magical powers. Civ5 does give an interesting mechanic for religion, and it's all pretty neutral and mundane.

That's not a bad idea. How about something like this:

Let priests have significant influence over the peasants who believe in their faith? At low levels, they could nudge morale and loyalty up and down. At higher levels, it might be reasonable to give them the ability to raise up a peasant mob to kick Lords or knights out of their estates, or even (if the priest's skill is high enough, and there's not enough troops in the region to stop it) claim the region as a new outpost of the religion (naturally, giving the priest the lordship in the process!).

...Hey, wait a second....

[Norrel]

That's not a bad idea. How about something like this:

Let priests have significant influence over the peasants who believe in their faith? At low levels, they could nudge morale and loyalty up and down. At higher levels, it might be reasonable to give them the ability to raise up a peasant mob to kick Lords or knights out of their estates, or even (if the priest's skill is high enough, and there's not enough troops in the region to stop it) claim the region as a new outpost of the religion (naturally, giving the priest the lordship in the process!).

...Hey, wait a second....

Is this really worth thousands upon thousands of gold to upkeep? A slightly more effective courtier and an extremely circumstantially useful method of intrigue?

Also that's kinda not really what we were discussing.

[Chenier]

That's not a bad idea. How about something like this:

Let priests have significant influence over the peasants who believe in their faith? At low levels, they could nudge morale and loyalty up and down. At higher levels, it might be reasonable to give them the ability to raise up a peasant mob to kick Lords or knights out of their estates, or even (if the priest's skill is high enough, and there's not enough troops in the region to stop it) claim the region as a new outpost of the religion (naturally, giving the priest the lordship in the process!).

...Hey, wait a second....

No. These features are worthless. And only concern priests.

Religion needs to be more than just about the priests.

In Civ5, there's no way that I've found to use religion as a weapon. It just grants bonuses. Last game I played, I founded a religion early on and converted the whole world, peacefully crushing every other faith. Every single city was 90% or more of my religion. It gave me various bonuses that don't translate well to BM, but made it feel useful anyways.

Religion needs to be more than a glorified guild with a few useless gimmicky options reserved for priests (weeks of preaching, mostly to be instantly undone, to drop loyalty a few %s? Seriously?).

Is this really worth thousands upon thousands of gold to upkeep? A slightly more effective courtier and an extremely circumstantially useful method of intrigue?

I can do a HELL OF A LOT MORE damage or good as an ambassador, with far less gold and far less hours. When you want to deal damage, your priest/ambassador doesn't use his "influence followers" option, even if he has 60% following or more, he uses his ambassador badmouth realm option.