Author Topic: What makes a good BM religion?  (Read 14220 times)

Gabanus family

  • Board Moderator
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1340
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #30: January 18, 2013, 01:07:38 AM »
The main issue as said is that you need some political power for a religion to do well. FEI for instance has a war between the Order of the Elders and the Church of Sartan, but very little actually happens in terms of crusades and burning temples or anything, why? Because the political powers (wisely perhaps in their situation) refuse to allow such religious war to be actually fought by members of their realm. Selene tried to do it aggressively and failed horribly in this case. We attempted to do the same in Ibladesh, again failed there unfortunately.

Although there are some positive points on religion. If you can get that power and tie important political figures to a church (and not just, hey I'm a member whoopwhoop, but actually tie them to you) then you can accomplish nice things with religion. As said, being part of a religion can get you that lordship etc.

I know for a fact it's used in more realms, although perhaps secretly.
New account active chars:
Garas: First Oligarch - Goriad: Astrum - Goriad II: Obia'Syela

Kwanstein

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #31: January 18, 2013, 01:32:45 AM »
That's not a bad idea. How about something like this:

Let priests have significant influence over the peasants who believe in their faith? At low levels, they could nudge morale and loyalty up and down. At higher levels, it might be reasonable to give them the ability to raise up a peasant mob to kick Lords or knights out of their estates, or even (if the priest's skill is high enough, and there's not enough troops in the region to stop it) claim the region as a new outpost of the religion (naturally, giving the priest the lordship in the process!).

...Hey, wait a second....

Those types of priest powers are good for quelling internal threats. They can be used to destroy dissenters, such as a Duke who threatens secession, by instantly ousting him from power, so that a more conservative character can take his place.

But as for dealing with external threats, they are useless. Hostile realms can simply arrest you before you start preaching, denying your religious spread.

Thus those powers do little to encourage intrigue or warfare, as they actively work to harm those who might initiate such things, while being incapable of initiating those things itself. Religion is a tool for preserving status quo, nothing more.

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #32: January 18, 2013, 01:51:39 AM »
Those types of priest powers are good for quelling internal threats. They can be used to destroy dissenters, such as a Duke who threatens secession, by instantly ousting him from power, so that a more conservative character can take his place.

But as for dealing with external threats, they are useless. Hostile realms can simply arrest you before you start preaching, denying your religious spread.

Thus those powers do little to encourage intrigue or warfare, as they actively work to harm those who might initiate such things, while being incapable of initiating those things itself. Religion is a tool for preserving status quo, nothing more.

100% agreed.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #33: January 18, 2013, 02:18:43 AM »
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #34: January 18, 2013, 02:22:56 AM »
So, what types of powers/features would you like religions to have? They should be *active* powers. i.e. something that a player has to initiate to make it happen.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Dishman

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #35: January 18, 2013, 02:33:08 AM »
I'm liking the 'priests write scrolls' idea. If a cult or church could suddenly summon a horde of monsters on your doorstep for being an unbeliever, you'd get yo ass to church.

If you gave religions a weapon, they'd have much more reason to fight. It would take some balancing measures and some testing, but I can't think of anything better than using the clergy to manifest power through the written word.

EDIT: Someone more familiar with making feature requests want to post this (and other ideas) so we don't hijack the thread?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 02:37:15 AM by Dishman »
Eoric the Dim (Perdan), Enoch the Bright (Asylon), Emeric the Dark (Obsidian Islands)

Orobos, The Insatiable Snake (Sandalak)

Norrel

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 841
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #36: January 18, 2013, 02:35:04 AM »
So, what types of powers/features would you like religions to have? They should be *active* powers. i.e. something that a player has to initiate to make it happen.

I was thinking you could use faith points (which would be gained regularly through peasant worship) which you can use for upgrades or one-shots, like in civ. Or do you have another mechanism in mind?

Some upgrades I thought of; a crusade upgrade that grants faith for hated religions killed in combat, a morale upgrade for units led by members of the church, etc. I guess these upgrades could require a one-time cost as well as upkeep in faith.

Some one-shots would be like spawning a unit of militia, giving a one-day bonus to combat against hated religions, instantly creating a new temple, etc.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 02:36:42 AM by Norrel »

egamma

  • Guest
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #37: January 18, 2013, 04:33:36 AM »
I'm liking the 'priests write scrolls' idea. If a cult or church could suddenly summon a horde of monsters on your doorstep for being an unbeliever, you'd get yo ass to church.

If you gave religions a weapon, they'd have much more reason to fight. It would take some balancing measures and some testing, but I can't think of anything better than using the clergy to manifest power through the written word.

EDIT: Someone more familiar with making feature requests want to post this (and other ideas) so we don't hijack the thread?

If you haven't noticed, priests have no actual in game effects. This would be rejected instantly.

Dishman

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #38: January 18, 2013, 04:44:06 AM »
If you haven't noticed, priests have no actual in game effects. This would be rejected instantly.

Ah, the Apple version of 'lolno': That isn't a bug, it's a feature!

Well, if the intent of a good BM religion is purely for flavor..then I'd say http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Bloodspeakers did pretty good. An amorphous collection with enough doctrine leniency to allow anyone to jump in with their own style and enough structure to bond all of it together. At least from what I've gathered from the wiki.
Eoric the Dim (Perdan), Enoch the Bright (Asylon), Emeric the Dark (Obsidian Islands)

Orobos, The Insatiable Snake (Sandalak)

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #39: January 18, 2013, 01:27:53 PM »
Ambassadors are overpowered. Especially since all their work is done in secret.

Even before ambassadors, priest options were ridiculously underpowered.

1) They rely on high follower counts, which can only really be achieved in your own realm where there are no competing religions and where you can get people to build temples
2) Maintaining temples of the right sizes, and shrines, costs thousands and thousands of gold.
3) Even with the massive infrastructure, getting decent follower rates takes forever in terms of time, and countless of the priest's hours in preaching. Many of these spent hours don't actually serve to gain new followers, but simply to replace the ones lost since the priest last came to the region.
4) Most of the actions cost so many followers, that no one in their right mind would sacrifice work which took so long to accomplish.
5) The "stronger" options are so "great" that they have almost no useful uses outside of civil wars. In offensive campaigns, they can only really work in isolated rural regions, because mobile troops, even your own, will stop you and throw you in the enemy dungeon. And almost nobody can use these "advanced" options. The oratory skill needs to be high. The priest needs to be an elder. Auto da fes require the region have a large enough temple (unlikely in hostile lands), and claiming the region requires that you don't already hold some kind of lordship.

Yea, Anaris. The priest options are so wonderful, I can't even begin to imagine why, even when all of my characters were priests, I never used them.

They are gimmicky at best. Religion needs more structural mechanics that mean it isn't just a glorified guild anymore. And these need to not be limited to priests.

Anaris

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8491
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #40: January 18, 2013, 03:17:56 PM »
Ah, the Apple version of 'lolno': That isn't a bug, it's a feature!

Well, if the intent of a good BM religion is purely for flavor..then I'd say http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Bloodspeakers did pretty good. An amorphous collection with enough doctrine leniency to allow anyone to jump in with their own style and enough structure to bond all of it together. At least from what I've gathered from the wiki.

The game-mechanic powers of priests are exactly commensurate with those they might have been expected to have in the RL middle ages.

In other words, influence and power over people, not mystical magical powers.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vellos

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3736
  • Stodgy Old Man in Training
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #41: January 18, 2013, 03:42:50 PM »
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Anaris

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8491
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #42: January 18, 2013, 04:03:29 PM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Norrel

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 841
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #43: January 18, 2013, 04:16:00 PM »
Anaris, what would you think about a faith mechanic like Civ V's? Obviously it'd be a major overhaul and as such is too much work for now (or ever), but is it broken on the face of it?

Anaris

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8491
    • View Profile
Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #44: January 18, 2013, 04:20:31 PM »
Anaris, what would you think about a faith mechanic like Civ V's? Obviously it'd be a major overhaul and as such is too much work for now (or ever), but is it broken on the face of it?

I don't know Civ V, but from your descriptions, I don't think it would be very appropriate. Things like "faith points" don't really mesh well with the general feel and mechanics of BM.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan