Author Topic: What makes a good BM religion?  (Read 20020 times)

vonGenf

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #45: January 18, 2013, 04:53:34 PM »
Make religion members able to give flag something as "heresy," like vulgarity, and it automatically goes to the religion's elders, who rule on it anonymously. i.e. "the lesser nobles are grumbling that you've started to stray from the One True Path"

I like that. Ideally, the effect would be that the noble in question would not be seen as faithful by the majority; therefore for example the peasants of his region would start again to be unruly, as if he was a pagan, or for a priest his influence would wane.

Allow religions to declare characters anathema, whereby they may have a random chance of being assaulted by peasants in areas where that realm is dominant, especially if they're a courtier or something. Obviously the number of anathema persons should be capped, probably as a ratio of the members or priests of a religion.

Two words: Bowie Ironsides;D

This sounds like a very fun mechanics.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Kwanstein

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #46: January 18, 2013, 05:25:19 PM »
Battlemaster is very similar to Crusader Kings, so instead of calling a religious value "faith points", it might work better to call it "piety", instead. This wording change makes it congruous with the honour and prestige system already in effect. Like honour and prestige, it could unlock various actions at various levels.

What those actions should be, are offensive abilities, that can be used to disadvantage hostile foreign realms, thus promoting the use of priests as tools of intrigue. The writing of scrolls is my favourite idea, for such an ability.

Anaris

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #47: January 18, 2013, 05:45:43 PM »
What those actions should be, are offensive abilities, that can be used to disadvantage hostile foreign realms, thus promoting the use of priests as tools of intrigue. The writing of scrolls is my favourite idea, for such an ability.

This is simply not going to happen. Scrolls are magic. Player characters do not have magic. The Gods our characters believe in are all equally made-up, and they do not grant supernatural powers to their followers.
Timothy Collett

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BardicNerd

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #48: January 18, 2013, 05:48:59 PM »
The game-mechanic powers of priests are exactly commensurate with those they might have been expected to have in the RL middle ages.

In other words, influence and power over people, not mystical magical powers.

That's not entirely true.  People in the middle ages ascribed all sorts of mystical magical abilities to saints and their relics.  Having priests be able to do something with relics and pray to saints or gods for divine intervention seems entirely in keeping with what might have been expected in the RL middle ages (obviously, flashy things are mostly out, most things should probably be plausibly deniable as actual divine intervention, no matter what the priests claim).

Quote from: Anaris

That sounds reasonable to me, but I think Tom would dislike it, as it mixes the religious side and the political side too directly.
In the middle ages, the religious side and the political side were pretty directly mixed.  The fact that they aren't so much in BM (due partially I think to our modern ideas of separation of church and state, partially due to the lack of incentives) is I think a large part of why most religions in BM are fairly meaningless and uninteresting.

Geronus

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #49: January 18, 2013, 06:07:44 PM »
For religions to be good drivers of conflict, their mix of incentives needs to be changed. Most of their present incentives tend toward moderation and excessive reliance on the secular establishment for support. That is why flavorless state religions are so prevalent - they are by far the easiest kind of religion to build and maintain, and secular rulers like them because they are docile and firmly under state control. Furthermore, they act as an inert barrier to expansion by more militant and less pliable faiths that might destabilize the realm with their presence.

Anaris

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #50: January 18, 2013, 06:14:58 PM »
That's not entirely true.  People in the middle ages ascribed all sorts of mystical magical abilities to saints and their relics.  Having priests be able to do something with relics and pray to saints or gods for divine intervention seems entirely in keeping with what might have been expected in the RL middle ages (obviously, flashy things are mostly out, most things should probably be plausibly deniable as actual divine intervention, no matter what the priests claim).

They ascribed all kinds of things. People still do. Doesn't mean they were actually able to do those things.

So, again: The only powers priests in BM are going to have are powers of influence. Not "divine intervention" or anything that's likely to look like it.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Penchant

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #51: January 18, 2013, 07:49:49 PM »
They ascribed all kinds of things. People still do. Doesn't mean they were actually able to do those things.

So, again: The only powers priests in BM are going to have are powers of influence. Not "divine intervention" or anything that's likely to look like it.
If the piety system was used, I would like the ability to make scrolls possible. I like the idea of havng this ability because it allows for a little backing to the religion but is very hard to do. making these scrolls would cost a ridiculous amount of piety so that it only happens a few times. If the ability to do such a thing doesn't make sense for a religion, then don't do it, find a way to roleplay it, or prove your elders wrong. I would suggest piety be available to everyone but much easier for priests and elders to do. One way of gaining piety would be through sermons, but only public sermons. So that their is a way for it to know if it is a sermon or a just another message, their would be a button like vulgarity to click in which it is sent to three characters but is OOC and they rate it 1-5, depending on the sum would tell if piety is given.
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Anaris

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #52: January 18, 2013, 07:57:43 PM »
If the piety system was used, I would like the ability to make scrolls possible.

I'm not sure how many ways I can say "this is never going to happen."

This is never going to happen. Please accept it and move on.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vellos

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #53: January 18, 2013, 08:05:55 PM »
Anaris:

Should I feature request these individually or collectively?

/

Based on your knowledge of the code, are any of these actually the kinds of things that could be implemented quickly (i.e. before/during the Doctrine conversion process)?

You have missed the point.

Fair enough.

OK, that doesn't sound unreasonable. What sort of effect would you say this should have?

Small H/P hits. Literally EXACTLY like vulgarity. A button you can click on every message a person sends (even to non-members of the religion or private messages) that will refer the message to a selection of elders and/or priests of the sender's religion. However the internal vulgarity mechanic works, duplicate it and, if the message is ruled vulgar, then, bam– they take a very slight H/P hit. Maybe even make it generate an in-religion notification, "Rumors that So-and-So has been making unorthodox and unsettling statements have begun to spread..."

Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean "change the code so that priests of your own realm cannot be arrested"?

No, I mean Cheniers complaint about claiming a region for a religion, where your probability of being arrested and put in ENEMY prison INCREASES if YOUR OWN REALM has soldiers in the region.

Again, it's not an RTO. It's claiming the region for the religion. I could see a case for making someone else who's an elder the Lord, but that's pathetically easy to game.

Sorry about terminology.

How would this be easy to game? To me it seems entirely reasonable and very fun RP. But maybe very buggy: what if you appoint an elder to a lordship who was a member of a different realm?

That sounds reasonable to me, but I think Tom would dislike it, as it mixes the religious side and the political side too directly.

I'm not sure what on earth that means. Priests can already badmouth realms. This is just a way for a religion to do so institutionally. Heck, its game mechanic effect could even be negligible or nonexistent, and it'd STILL be valuable. Or make it so it has no effect on its own, but priestly actions that coordinate with it (badmouthing evil realms for example, or lauding faithful ones) are more effective– when your preaching is backed up by the local parish priests, you're more effective. Hardly matters to me how it works– I just think, if we want religions to engage in conflict AS RELIGIONS, then we need to give them a mechanic to do so, rather than just as individuals. Just like how wars between realms aren't just a bunch of nobles marching around set to murderous and looting.

That one sounds kind of cool. I wouldn't make the chance dependent on class, but rather on unit size, though.

Sure, that's reasonable enough. Maybe needs a little thought relating to IRs– but I suppose a priest declared anathema could always migrate.

I assume that both members and non-members of a religion could be declared anathema; otherwise you could game it by just joining a religion that declares against you.

Done. I have just tripled the amount of H/P available to priests ;D </snark>

...Yeah, there probably should be more H/P available to priests. Maybe for converting large numbers of peasants and the like.

Yeah. Probably should be.

The only point I'd make in response to this is that most of these can be done in RP. Obviously that can't apply game-mechanic effects, but it can definitely serve the purpose of, say, getting the characters in the religion to view realm X as evil, or Allison Kabrinski as a heretic.

I can have wars in RP. It's not the same thing.

None of these tools would plausibly replace RP. It's not like, with an anathema tool, we would suddenly stop politicking against Bowie Ironsides or Allison Kabrinski. And the debates about declaring them anathema would be EPIC.

Same with declaring realms evil. It's a tool for expression and creation of RPs– not a replacement. Because, right now, these things AREN'T RP'd much, and not because no players would enjoy it– but because they're not much to be gained from it. Give us something for which we can actually fight.
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Anaris

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #54: January 18, 2013, 08:18:59 PM »
Should I feature request these individually or collectively?

I would say individually.

Quote
Based on your knowledge of the code, are any of these actually the kinds of things that could be implemented quickly (i.e. before/during the Doctrine conversion process)?

A couple of them aren't too hard—adding honour & prestige gain for priest actions and putting someone else in power after a Claim Region—but the rest are definitely post-Doctrine material.

Quote
Small H/P hits. Literally EXACTLY like vulgarity. A button you can click on every message a person sends (even to non-members of the religion or private messages) that will refer the message to a selection of elders and/or priests of the sender's religion. However the internal vulgarity mechanic works, duplicate it and, if the message is ruled vulgar, then, bam– they take a very slight H/P hit. Maybe even make it generate an in-religion notification, "Rumors that So-and-So has been making unorthodox and unsettling statements have begun to spread..."

OK, that sounds like it might fly.

Quote
No, I mean Cheniers complaint about claiming a region for a religion, where your probability of being arrested and put in ENEMY prison INCREASES if YOUR OWN REALM has soldiers in the region.

Sorry about terminology.

No. Five kinds of no.

The terminology is important, for exactly this reason.

What you call an "RTO" is a priest whipping up a mob of screaming peasants with pitchforks and torches to go throw the old Lord out. There is no easy way to tell it apart from any other mob of screaming peasants until after you've stopped it from rampaging. The only thing you can do is order your troops to stay out of the way of any screaming mob of peasants in the region.

Which you do by keeping them out of the region.

The feature is not intended to be a simple drop-in replacement for other kinds of takeover. Honestly, I'd really like to change it somehow to drive that home more clearly, but I'm not sure how. Whatever I did in that direction would certainly have the effect of nerfing the feature somewhat.

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How would this be easy to game? To me it seems entirely reasonable and very fun RP.

Easy to just appoint anyone in the religion you want, by making them a temp-elder.

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But maybe very buggy: what if you appoint an elder to a lordship who was a member of a different realm?

Oh, that's dead easy. Whoever you pick as the new Lord, that's the realm the region would join. If they belonged to the realm the region currently belonged to, it would stay there. Remember, it's not supposed to be a takeover option for your realm.

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I'm not sure what on earth that means. Priests can already badmouth realms. This is just a way for a religion to do so institutionally. Heck, its game mechanic effect could even be negligible or nonexistent, and it'd STILL be valuable. Or make it so it has no effect on its own, but priestly actions that coordinate with it (badmouthing evil realms for example, or lauding faithful ones) are more effective– when your preaching is backed up by the local parish priests, you're more effective. Hardly matters to me how it works– I just think, if we want religions to engage in conflict AS RELIGIONS, then we need to give them a mechanic to do so, rather than just as individuals. Just like how wars between realms aren't just a bunch of nobles marching around set to murderous and looting.

Well, personally, I kind of like the idea. However, I believe that it was, in fact, suggested in the past (possibly only within the dev team, my memory on this point is hazy), and Tom vetoed it on the grounds that he didn't want religions having official policies on realms, or something like that. They should only have official policies on religions.

I could be misremembering entirely.

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Sure, that's reasonable enough. Maybe needs a little thought relating to IRs– but I suppose a priest declared anathema could always migrate.

I assume that both members and non-members of a religion could be declared anathema; otherwise you could game it by just joining a religion that declares against you.

Yes, I see no reason to restrict who you'd be able to declare anathema. Aside from maybe elders. That would be kind of odd.

...Could sort of play into the sect/schism mechanics I've got in mind for later, though.

Quote
I can have wars in RP. It's not the same thing.

None of these tools would plausibly replace RP. It's not like, with an anathema tool, we would suddenly stop politicking against Bowie Ironsides or Allison Kabrinski. And the debates about declaring them anathema would be EPIC.

Same with declaring realms evil. It's a tool for expression and creation of RPs– not a replacement. Because, right now, these things AREN'T RP'd much, and not because no players would enjoy it– but because they're not much to be gained from it. Give us something for which we can actually fight.

No, I recognize that. I'm just saying that there are aspects of most of the features mentioned that could be dealt with entirely in RP, even if the features themselves are never added. And kind of playing devil's advocate.
Timothy Collett

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Bedwyr

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #55: January 18, 2013, 08:32:49 PM »
I like the idea of H/P bumps tied to conversions, and instead of friendly troops not stopping a claim region for religion attempt, see below "Assert Divine Right". 

More offensive options...

"Exhort the faithful against their lord"
When used in a region that has a lord not of your faith, it encourages the followers of your religion to resist the control of the lord (and by extension, realm).  Control is lowered proportionally by the percentage of followers in the region, and once beyond a certain minimal percentage, there is an increasing chance of a rogue militia unit forming to actively fight.

This would be an option that doesn't require the absolutely dominating percentage of followers that some of the other options do, could be very useful in holy wars, and fits with what Priests in BM are supposed to be able to do and what priests in history could do.

"Assert divine right: Purge the heretics/Protect the faithful"
Priest options to assist in takeovers.  Both fear and sympathy based options, and I would suggest having their impact on followers tied to the success of the TO.  If the TO succeeds, then the percentage of the succeess due to religious options equates to percentage increase in followers (clearly, you were right), and similarly, if the TO fails it causes losses (clearly, you were wrong).  H/P gains/losses should similarly happen.  Priests are very publicly putting their reputation and influence on the line for this.

"Repurpose shrines/temples"
You should be able to convert shrines (percentage chance the shrine is just destroyed) and temples (percentage chance temple loses one or more levels) of other faiths.  Likely to cause a religious riot, friendly troops can help suppress.  Serious historical accuracy here, the number of shrines/gods/temples that Christianity in particular assimilated is vast, and the Hagia Sophia is the most prominent example I can think of.

"Call for martyrs"
Fill RC's faster.  Very straightforward, also accurate (allowing for how BM recruitment works).
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Chenier

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #56: January 18, 2013, 11:20:25 PM »
That's not entirely true.  People in the middle ages ascribed all sorts of mystical magical abilities to saints and their relics.  Having priests be able to do something with relics and pray to saints or gods for divine intervention seems entirely in keeping with what might have been expected in the RL middle ages (obviously, flashy things are mostly out, most things should probably be plausibly deniable as actual divine intervention, no matter what the priests claim).
In the middle ages, the religious side and the political side were pretty directly mixed.  The fact that they aren't so much in BM (due partially I think to our modern ideas of separation of church and state, partially due to the lack of incentives) is I think a large part of why most religions in BM are fairly meaningless and uninteresting.

To be a pope, doesn't one need to have actually conducted a miracle? (Probably to be archbishop or something, actually).

Sounds pretty magic to me.
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Chenier

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #57: January 18, 2013, 11:27:20 PM »
"Please wait in the adjacent region while our priest rises a mob against the heathen lord" is just stupid.

So what if there's a mob being stirred up? Why on earth would invading forces help the lord's estates fend off the mobs attacking them? The mobs would go attacking anyone and everyone, they have a very specific goal in mind.

And in any case, regardless of the lame RP justification given for it, it does make the feature feel horribly designed. If you want to kick out a heathen from lordship, and do it in your own realm, then you are likely to be punished for breaking the political hierarchy. If you do it in another realm, they will simply arrest you before you even being able to try. Unless you go sneak in late-turn when you know there's no one around, but then it basically makes you some kind of dumb ninja region-claimer.

The priest features are atrocious. And so is the religion system as a whole. It needs a complete overhaul, it needs to be stripped of its guild template and given something new, mechanics of its own.
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Vellos

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #58: January 19, 2013, 12:15:44 AM »
Been a while since I've done a feature request.

Do we still put'em on Bugtracker, or is it all on the forum?
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Penchant

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Re: What makes a good BM religion?
« Reply #59: January 19, 2013, 12:47:21 AM »
Been a while since I've done a feature request.

Do we still put'em on Bugtracker, or is it all on the forum?
Forum first, accepted ones are then put on the bug tracker, I believe.
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