Remove Elder of Religion

[Eldargard]

Title: Remove Elder of Religion

Summary: Allow members of a religion to remove any elder.

Details:
Currently, there is little lower ranking members of a religion to deal with bad elders - especially when there is only a single top ranked Elder. It would be great if there were ways to remove Elders from power. I would suggest that the following options be added:

1. Protest an Elder: Works just like protesting a council member. If successful, the elder is demoted to the lowest possible rank.
2. Uprising: The option to join or start an uprising is added to temples. When a noble joins the uprising they must pick one other noble to support as a replacement. This can be changed at any time and can be themselves. Once more than half of the religions nobles have joined the top ranked elder or elders is/are kicked out of the religion and each elder kicked out is replaced by the noble or nobles with the most support. The top ranked elder/elders can not join an uprising. who supports who would be anonymous but members of the uprising can see how much support each noble has.

Benefits: I think this would make religions more dynamic and fun. It could also bring greater engagement.

Possible Exploits: I can not think of any... I am sure you can!

[Anaris]

Guilds and religions are not intended to work like realms. The lack of recourse against undesirable high-ranking members is by design.

[Penchant]

Guilds and religions are not intended to work like realms. The lack of recourse against undesirable high-ranking members is by design.

I agree with it for guilds but not exactly for faith. If the sole elder of the faith suddenly changed all the beliefs of the religion, the members of the faith should be able to protest him out of his position for instance.

[Chenier]

Guilds and religions are not intended to work like realms. The lack of recourse against undesirable high-ranking members is by design.

It's by design, but it's also one of the great reasons that religions are so unappealing, and that uniting ambitious people with religious aspirations is next to impossible.

[Indirik]

I agree with it for guilds but not exactly for faith. If the sole elder of the faith suddenly changed all the beliefs of the religion, the members of the faith should be able to protest him out of his position for instance.

"Change it back, or we leave."

Or wait for schisms.

[Penchant]

"Change it back, or we leave."

Or wait for schisms.

Schisms are not going to be happening soon and it shouldn't be expected that all the nobles of a faith have to leave and join a similar one because of a rogue leader. The protest option shouldn't be hard to implement into religion if you copy it but are using religion with any of the elders being protestable though maybe make it public protest only.

[Indirik]

Sack a few temples in protest. That should get their attention. Refuse to let the priests preach in your regions. Empty the temple treasuries, and refuse to contribute. Arrest the elder and toss him in prison.

Just some ideas, because I don't think that protesting out elders is ever going to happen.

[Penchant]

Sack a few temples in protest. That should get their attention. Refuse to let the priests preach in your regions. Empty the temple treasuries, and refuse to contribute. Arrest the elder and toss him in prison.

Just some ideas, because I don't think that protesting out elders is ever going to happen.

They hurt the religion not the elder for the ones concerning the temples and the preaching. For preaching there is no way to stop a priest unless you can arrest him. Arresting the elders requires him to be a priest. Regardless this does not actually make him change it back or put you in a position to do it yourself whereas protesting allows for both and as I said, should be easy to implement.

[Indirik]

If he's the only elder, he has to be a priest, or there won't be any religion.

Ease of implementation isn't the issue here. I don't think Tom will agree to this one at all.

[Penchant]

If he's the only elder, he has to be a priest, or there won't be any religion.

Ease of implementation isn't the issue here. I don't think Tom will agree to this one at all.

Hmm, that is true. Nonetheless I like the idea of protesting being available but I will stop advocating for it until there is a response from Tom on this.

[Tom]

Tim has said everything there is to say.

[Eldargard]

Change it back or we leave - This is a problem in my book. Why expect a noble to abondon something as important as their faith simply to protest an elder. It suggests that nobles should place little value in their faith.

Sack a few temples in protest - Same as above. If a character truly takes religion seriously they would never be willing to sack a temple of their faith because they feel the elders are plain wrong.

Refuse to let the priests preach in your regions - This punishes the faith not the errant elder. No truly faithful noble would do that.

Empty the temple treasuries and refuse to contribute - Once again the strength of ones faith should not allow them to take actions that truly harm their religion and not the elder causing problems.

Arrest the elder and toss him in prison - This results in you becoming an agressor and gives the elder in question a weapon to use against you, but is the best of the options presented.

In short, as things stand, the best ways for a noble to fight against elders that they believe are harming their faith is to attack the church as a whole or to abandon their faith. This really makes it hard for one to be a die hard noble of the faith.

[Eldargard]

Tim has said everything there is to say.

I can not say I fully understand the reasoning or agree based on the information I do have, but so be it.

[Penchant]

Tim has said everything there is to say.

As unwin said the answer's given are answers that implies you want to hurt your religion or its asking a noble whose faith is his most important thing in life, to leave the faith because of a rogue leader who is verbally being protested but there are no mechanics to actually make him leave. If you don't like the feature, fine, but I would appreciate it if a dev could give an answer to this that someone that actually cares about his faith would do.

[Chenier]

As unwin said the answer's given are answers that implies you want to hurt your religion or its asking a noble whose faith is his most important thing in life, to leave the faith because of a rogue leader who is verbally being protested but there are no mechanics to actually make him leave. If you don't like the feature, fine, but I would appreciate it if a dev could give an answer to this that someone that actually cares about his faith would do.

The only "solution" is to get the founder's realm on your side, and to get him banned and captured by his own realm-mates, and then have him executed. None of the other things proposed are anywhere near an actual solution to such a problem.