Seceding: Dukes vs Margraves

[Dante Silverfire]

So, under the new estate system, who is able to secede?

Can only Dukes secede from a realm to create a new one? (Assuming they have a city or stronghold within their duchy?)

Or can Margraves of Cities/Strongholds secede to create a new realm as well.

Some other restrictions perhaps?

[Indirik]

Secession has been the power of the duke. This has not changed.

[Dante Silverfire]

Secession has been the power of the duke. This has not changed.

Okay. What exactly are the restrictions currently placed upon Dukes seceding though.

I've seen a lot of discussion in the Magistrate cases in the past about them, and I don't know what game mechanically isn't supposed to be possible. If I'm Duke of more than one city, and one of the cities includes the capital of the realm, am I able to secede? (As long as there is another city or Stronghold in the realm?)

I just don't know whether me seeing a button available means I'm allowed to press it from what I've read.

P.S. If this should be moved to the Courthouse Q/A let me know.

[Indirik]

Secession is different than switching allegiance. Secession is controled via code. Switching allegiance should be controled via code, but I'm not sure if that was fixed. (I would have to check the bugtracker.)

I don't know of any new restrictions on secessions. Tim programmed it, I think. He would probably know the answer to the multiple city question.

[Foundation]

Duchies containing the capital of the realm cannot secede. They can, however, switch allegiances. To even begin considering either of these two options there must be another duchy containing a city.

This is the current behaviour.

[Anaris]

Foundation is correct.

Here is the complete and comprehensive list of restrictions on secession:

• You must be Duke.
• Your Duchy must contain at least one city.
• Your Duchy cannot contain all the cities in the realm.
• Your Duchy cannot contain the realm's capital.
• You must be in the city (within your Duchy) that you wish to become the new capital of your realm.
• This city must not have high independence/low control.
• You must have been in both your duchy and realm for at least 2 weeks.
• You must have at least 6 hours available.
• You cannot already be the ruler of your realm.
• You cannot be in an NPC realm (pretty much moot nowadays, save for bugs).
• You cannot have a family member who is already a ruler on the continent.

[Dante Silverfire]

Foundation is correct.

Here is the complete and comprehensive list of restrictions on secession:

• You must be Duke.
• Your Duchy must contain at least one city.
• Your Duchy cannot contain all the cities in the realm.
• Your Duchy cannot contain the realm's capital.
• You must be in the city (within your Duchy) that you wish to become the new capital of your realm.
• This city must not have high independence/low control.
• You must have been in both your duchy and realm for at least 2 weeks.
• You must have at least 6 hours available.
• You cannot already be the ruler of your realm.
• You cannot be in an NPC realm (pretty much moot nowadays, save for bugs).
• You cannot have a family member who is already a ruler on the continent.

Okay, is there a reason that one can change allegiance while they have the capital of the realm within their duchy, but they can't secede? This seems to be an outdated holdover from the old-estate system. The new estate system mainly the Duke/Margrave separation mechanic seems to make this point somewhat antiquated.

It makes sense to me that a Duke can't secede if his ONLY city is the capital of the realm. However, if he chooses to secede and create a new realm while having more than one city, and he makes the capital of the new realm a different capital than the old one you have a completely different set of circumstances than ever seen before.

I guess I'm confused what is trying to be restricted here. Every single other restriction I can think of a reason for it to be in place, but this one baffles me. What is different about a Duke seceding a three city duchy(in a 4 city or more realm) and a duke transferring the allegiance of his three city duchy to another realm, (perhaps a one city realm).

P.S. Thank you everyone for the responses so far. Very helpful.

[vonGenf]

Okay, is there a reason that one can change allegiance while they have the capital of the realm within their duchy, but they can't secede? This seems to be an outdated holdover from the old-estate system. The new estate system mainly the Duke/Margrave separation mechanic seems to make this point somewhat antiquated.

Because you already control the capital of the realm. In a sense, you already control the realm.

Think of it this way: the Duke of Edimburgh can secede Scotland. The Duke of Cardiff can secede Wales. But the Duke of London can't secede England, that's already the main part of the realm. He can seize power in all of England through a rebellion, and then Scotland and Wales can secede if they don't like it.

[Penchant]

Because you already control the capital of the realm. In a sense, you already control the realm.

Think of it this way: the Duke of Edimburgh can secede Scotland. The Duke of Cardiff can secede Wales. But the Duke of London can't secede England, that's already the main part of the realm. He can seize power in all of England through a rebellion, and then Scotland and Wales can secede if they don't like it.

Dukes should be able to give a region to another duchy then.

[fodder]

.... the changing allegiance of duchy with capital thing... thought that was a bug?

[Penchant]

.... the changing allegiance of duchy with capital thing... thought that was a bug?

No it is intended.

[vonGenf]

Dukes should be able to give a region to another duchy then.

Lords can switch duchies as they please. Order your Lord to do so.

[Penchant]

Lords can switch duchies as they please. Order your Lord to do so.

Because the Lord might not want to and it's your duchy so you should be able to kick someone out if you want to.

[Anaris]

It makes sense to me that a Duke can't secede if his ONLY city is the capital of the realm. However, if he chooses to secede and create a new realm while having more than one city, and he makes the capital of the new realm a different capital than the old one you have a completely different set of circumstances than ever seen before.

That's actually a reasonable argument, that probably deserves a separate discussion.

[Dante Silverfire]

That's actually a reasonable argument, that probably deserves a separate discussion.

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3734.0.html

I've made a feature request regarding this particular issue.