Q & A - - -Topic: Margrave of Capital asks all priests to change class

[Vellos]

And in my case in Westmoor, I'd be asking people who are warriors to actually recruit a damned unit as well.

I go on MY personal experience:  There are warriors who don't recruit units.  Period.  Not infies, not traders, warriors outright.

Saying "I would like to ask that someone pick up the sword again" rather than "I would like to ask all nobles to pick up the sword again" would get someone flagged to these very forums because it sounds like a passive-aggressive jab  where as my version literally is directed at everyone.  Not a class, not a specific person, but everyone.

And if it were flagged, such a situation would merit some debate by Magistrates– and we would debate it and hash it out for sure.

As it is, you can see there's disagreement among the Magistrates on where exactly to draw the line: it'd largely be a matter of context.

[Geronus]

Again, your best option is to simply let everyone else use the class and unit type they want and avoid this topic altogether.

Most Rulers/Generals/Marshals who fail to heed the above advice do so with nothing but good intentions in an effort to get a win for the team. However, to quote the Inalienable Rights page again, "Some of the worst events of both human history and in BattleMaster were done by people with good intentions."

To quote it further:

"The basic rule is: Just shut up and stay 100 feet away from any and all inalienable rights, no matter how well-meaning you are."

The fact that we are having this discussion suggests that people are losing sight of this basic truism. If you are about to write a letter and you find yourself wondering if it comes too close to violating an IR, then for the love of Pete, do not send it. If it comes close, then it comes too close. Period.

[Indirik]

There are warriors who don't recruit units.  Period.  No infies, not traders, warriors outright.

Fines and bans. Problem solved.

[Tom]

And in my case in Westmoor, I'd be asking people who are warriors to actually recruit a damned unit as well.

There is no IR to not have a unit. As long as you don't tell them what type of unit (which is an IR), you are fine.

[Chenier]

Yes, Draco: he wants it to be addressed generally, asking that someone or some few change, not that everyone who can change.

The latter is asking that particular people change their class, too.

It should, in fact, be addressed indeterminately. That's sort of the point: so that no particular person feels that they, specifically, have to do it.

Precisely. It needs to be worded in a way that nobody could be failing to obey an order, request, or suggestion. "We need more warriors" doesn't give the instructions, either tacitly or explicitly, for anyone in particular to become a warrior. Asking everyone to become warriors is an instruction to everyone without exception, so anyone not becoming a warrior would contradict the request. Same for asking all priests: any priest not changing is clearly not respecting the request.

It's fine to say that the realm could use more warriors, but if you really can't grasp this fundamental difference between stating a need and making a request, then you shouldn't even try. No one should ever feel pressured to change class. Ever. Period.

Saying "I would like to ask that someone pick up the sword again" rather than "I would like to ask all nobles to pick up the sword again" would get someone flagged to these very forums because it sounds like a passive-aggressive jab  where as my version literally is directed at everyone.  Not a class, not a specific person, but everyone.

Then don't ask. Context can sometimes mean that there is no appropriate way of stating a realm's need for specific classes. Live with it. Consider yourself lucky to have priests on your side instead of having these people simply desert.

[Draco Tanos]

Consider yourself lucky to have priests on your side instead of having these people simply desert.

Including my 2 characters, and the one that goes back from Courtier to Priest whenever he believes himself more needed in whichever function, we have 7 priests on EC (in the Church, not in the realm alone).  Soon to be eight.  Having priests hasn't really been an issue. =p

[Chenier]

Including my 2 characters, and the one that goes back from Courtier to Priest whenever he believes himself more needed in whichever function, we have 7 priests on EC (in the Church, not in the realm alone).  Soon to be eight.  Having priests hasn't really been an issue. =p

Just saying: people should consider their realm lucky of having priests, instead of not having these nobles at all. "These four characters are priests and priests are worthless to our efforts" is a really bad attitude, which is basically what the margrave was saying.

[Draco Tanos]

Oh, I agree.  But at the same time, when a realm is fighting for its very survival, I can understand the desire that they would at least temporarily pick up the sword again.

[Geronus]

Most Rulers/Generals/Marshals who fail to heed the above advice do so with nothing but good intentions in an effort to get a win for the team. However, to quote the Inalienable Rights page again, "Some of the worst events of both human history and in BattleMaster were done by people with good intentions."

Just so as everyone is clear, the intent of the offender is irrelevant. It's possible that a lesser punishment might be handed out to someone who accepted that they had done wrong and expressed remorse, but a guilty verdict is going to come down regardless of intent if an IR was in fact violated.

[Chenier]

Oh, I agree.  But at the same time, when a realm is fighting for its very survival, I can understand the desire that they would at least temporarily pick up the sword again.

Just as I'd understand for the desire to have everyone log in at every turn. Or be able to do late-turn moves, always.

But it's a game, and therefore about fun above a "winning over all else" mentality. That the realm be prosperous or on the brink of destruction, you just can never impede on another player's rights.

[egamma]

Oh, I agree.  But at the same time, when a realm is fighting for its very survival, I can understand the desire that they would at least temporarily pick up the sword again.

And you should assume that they, as a player, are aware that the realm is fighting for survival and that the are aware that their contribution would help. You don't have to ask. In fact, you CANNOT ask--that's the point of the IR.

[Penchant]

And you should assume that they, as a player, are aware that the realm is fighting for survival and that the are aware that their contribution would help. You don't have to ask. In fact, you CANNOT ask--that's the point of the IR.

I disagree on the first part, priests often aren't going to know how bad the war is going since they never see troop numbers except through realm wide scout reports, and you could state that the realm is fighting for survival and that the realm could go for any military aid it can get would be appreciated or that more nobles fighting would help the war effort.

[vonGenf]

that the realm could go for any military aid it can get would be appreciated or that more nobles fighting would help the war effort.

Emphasis added.

Since you could ask one or the other, just go for the first one. That's what is meant by the "ten-foot pole" rule.

[Chenier]

I disagree on the first part, priests often aren't going to know how bad the war is going since they never see troop numbers except through realm wide scout reports, and you could state that the realm is fighting for survival and that the realm could go for any military aid it can get would be appreciated or that more nobles fighting would help the war effort.

Priests can notice a shrinking realm, and see battle reports. Even if I wasn't doing much fighting in Minas Ithil, I quickly realized we were getting our asses kicked by the fact that we never won any battles and that we were losing regions fast. Never even had to look at CS.

[egamma]

I disagree on the first part, priests often aren't going to know how bad the war is going since they never see troop numbers except through realm wide scout reports, and you could state that the realm is fighting for survival and that the realm could go for any military aid it can get would be appreciated or that more nobles fighting would help the war effort.

You can also ask everyone if they have any family members that can come fight for the realm. Just don't single out priests.