Author Topic: Lukon vs Oritolon  (Read 15587 times)

Ketchum

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #15: February 24, 2013, 04:16:42 PM »
Today received report below  ::)

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Windaria
The local peasants laugh about the takeover activities of Lukon and have gone back to their normal lives. The takeover has been stopped.
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Revan

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #16: March 06, 2013, 10:17:12 PM »
I think Spearhead went into retirement when he got the Alebad gig! ;-)

It's been a month or so now and I have to say, I didn't expect the war to turn out the way it has so far. Oritolon has a handful of victories and Alebad's walls are still intact for the time being. Turns out that Lukon Horde is more of a rabble! Not sure Oritolon's success is sustainable over the long term though. I reckon the disparity in nobles between Lukon and Oritolon will see Oritolon overwhelmed eventually.

Valast

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #17: March 06, 2013, 11:54:01 PM »
This was never thought of as a quick fight from Lukon's side of things.  It has always been known that to make them give in would be expensive and time consuming.  But Lukon has tons of gold and nothing but time.

The longer this war drags on...the more gold income they will loose due to militia.  On top of that they can barely feed themselves.

The interesting part to me is that it did not have to come down to a war at all.  Basically too many nobles from Giblot (and elsewhere) filled Oritolons ranks, making any vote on a pro Lukon idea unattainable. 

That coupled with internal power plays by some nobles resulted in mass confusion about what was actually being proposed.  Had Oritolon gone with the plan they would have ended up the most powerful Empire in the unified Colonies.  Three cities with potential to bring the duchy of Lukon into their Oritolon Empire rather than the Lukon Empire.

The Unified Colonies was just a set of agreements monitored by group elected by each realm...basically to prevent genocide.

Now however they will likely end up loosing Alebad and any chance to bring Lukon into the Oritolon Empire...but in the end they will still be forced into the United Colonies (or what ever name the Colonial Senate eventually calls it).

Lukon still has thousands of gold on hand... and over a thousand recruits waiting to be recruited.

So far the battles have gone Oritolons way... but it has been Oritolons regions which have suffered and Oritolons honor that has been tainted by its use of priests in warfare...and failure to abide by combatant exchange.

All of that aside.  It is Oritolon we are talking about here.  Eventually someone or some group will choose to take power and that will be the end...if history is any indicator.


Ketchum

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #18: March 07, 2013, 01:41:16 AM »
I think Spearhead went into retirement when he got the Alebad gig! ;-)

It's been a month or so now and I have to say, I didn't expect the war to turn out the way it has so far. Oritolon has a handful of victories and Alebad's walls are still intact for the time being. Turns out that Lukon Horde is more of a rabble! Not sure Oritolon's success is sustainable over the long term though. I reckon the disparity in nobles between Lukon and Oritolon will see Oritolon overwhelmed eventually.
A handsome reward for his hardwork in Oritolon previously. It is a bit strange that he does not secede Alebad duchy, even considering he was a long time Lukon supporter. I am pretty sure Lukon would have given away Vir el Mari Height region for Alebad city to munch on ::)

On another note, it looks like all Ketchum family members have an affinity or should I say, talent for become Oritolon realm Judge. After Ash retirement as Judge, now it is May turn to become Judge :)
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egamma

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #19: March 07, 2013, 02:14:11 AM »
Actually, Oritolon did not like being told "you must join the empire and take yourself apart, and you have no say in the matter".

Valast

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #20: March 07, 2013, 05:37:18 AM »
Ahh well... egamma, we would still be sitting here waiting for Oritolon to vote on if they should have lunch before voting to see if a vote should be held to figure out the voting procedure on a vote to elect a voting official in charge of setting the vote for time frame of voting to see if they should have a vote.

I knew it was all a stall for time as soon as I found out the council had voted in a majority for it...then suddenly a new vote was being set for the entire realm.  Yet the person who was against the Empire to begin with and gathered support while making all the facts muddy is no longer even in Oritolon.

But hey...Lukon loves a good war.  We will battle to the death if need be.  BUT you cant deny that the Oritolon/Lukon federation was nothing but a shell anymore.  You guys did not trust Lukon which forced Lukon to not trust Oritolon.

egamma

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #21: March 11, 2013, 04:39:46 AM »
Ahh well... egamma, we would still be sitting here waiting for Oritolon to vote on if they should have lunch before voting to see if a vote should be held to figure out the voting procedure on a vote to elect a voting official in charge of setting the vote for time frame of voting to see if they should have a vote.
Actually, the realm-wide vote was in progress when Lukon declared on us. That affected the vote quite a lot, and not in Lukon's favor.

As for lords in favor, or not, it's really up to the Dukes if they want to secede or not--unless you think that the judge should have banned them, which actually wouldn't have been possible with Spearhead since he's Royal? Quite simply, you couldn't force Spearhead to leave if he didn't want to, and it's obvious what his choice was.

Valast

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #22: March 11, 2013, 05:19:02 PM »
So your saying it was not all a stall tactic designed to keep Lukon waiting while militia was stockpiled?

That Malice was not stalling, Robin was not stalling?  We were simply waiting for a vote of the people?

It was then unfortunate that the militia was being built up at the same time... as that was a key indicator that it was all a ruse to buy time for defense.

 

Revan

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #23: March 11, 2013, 08:04:44 PM »
I think we're learning more about Valakyrie's hypersensitivity on the diplomatic stage than anything that has happened in Oritolon ;-) When Malice called a referendum after the council vote it was because a handful of people were making enough of a ruckus that he had little choice but to hold a referendum. Another day of protests and Malice would have been forced out. And what would Lukon have done then? Probably assumed that Oritolon was saying no to empire. The first referendum was held for one purpose and that was to keep everything on track towards empire!

Of course, the outcome of that first referendum was a tie. It left Malice in a difficult position. He could have tried to force things through and damn the consequences, but it remained likely that would only lead to protests and trouble. So another referendum was started. It was then that Valakyrie started to get agitated and made sure no-one was under any illusions as to the consequences of a rejection. That's when things started turning against the idea of empire within Oritolon. The desperate act of Malice challenging Valakyrie was indeed a stalling tactic. But that's because almost out of the blue it became clear Lukon was about to declare war.

No-one in Oritolon had been expecting war. Valakyrie had been ambiguous enough (and to be fair, what Valakyrie told Malice in the beginning and what she was saying later on were completely different which didn't help much) that it didn't occur to anyone that Lukon might actually, seriously, declare war on Oritolon. The referendums had been about about making sure Oritolon was behind the empire. Only when it became obvious the second referendum was going to fail did Malice table the duel. It was mainly just to ensure Oritolon could make a half-decent effort at a defence before the Horde overwhelmed Alebad. The week that duel bought was just enough time for us to call in our nobles from across the realm, have them recruit and start heading toward Alebad. There wasn't time for militia placement. Maybe if the duel had forced a serious wound or a Lukon ruler election there would have been time but not otherwise! As I say, it was a desperate stalling tactic which Malice only resorted too once efforts to get Oritolon behind the empire were set to decisively fail.

I think given the way things have turned out, Malice did well to deliver a majority in favour of empire at all. But the old guard were never all that enthusiastic and Robin's caricature of Lukon got embedded in too many young minds. When Lukon's efforts of persuasion started getting ugly all it did was vindicate the naysayers and give more experienced hands the space they needed to change their minds on something they hadn't been all that fond of to begin with. That's the real problem. One or two former Giblot nobles didn't poison Oritolon against Lukon, Oritolon and Lukon simply drifted apart. Valakyrie might have all Valasts old contacts, but the old friendships and loyalties that used to underpin those links seem to have all-but disappeared. You can talk all day about how good everyone would have it under the empire but the peaceful division of Oritolon was simply asking too much.

If Lukon had been a bit more patient and less gung-ho in her communications, I still think Oritolon could have peacefully delivered on the empire. Oritolon never got the space to do it though. As things started getting fraught within Oritolon, Lukon started throwing wood onto the fire from outside. But even then, I suppose it comes back to the state of relations between Oritolon and Lukon. It's been a long time since Lukon had much faith in Oritolon's internal politics and that was reflected in Lukon's growing impatience and distrust. The truth is that the proposal of a Colonies empire came at possibly the lowest ebb in Oritolon and Lukon's shared history and war was probably always going to be the result.

Valast

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #24: March 11, 2013, 09:54:44 PM »
Ahhh there could be no other way and stay true to the Character of Lukon.  Valakyrie is the daughter of a great leader of Lukon.  The man who helped bring about the current age in the Colonies.  There was a time when he knew who would be elected in any given realm well before an election was needed...and a time when it was his biggest concern to see Oritolon and Lukon both advance.

BUT as he grew older and Oritolon changed through rebellions and such he had to change his mentality to keep Oritolon secure only for Lukons security rather than for Oritolons.  But he did it and kept doing it.  Every plan made or plot set or foiled was designed to keep both realms strong.

but he died.  The realm did not go with his son who was in exile in MT but to his daughter in Lukon.  She is a fine warrior and alright in diplomatic....Lukon style.  But just like in real life as people raise children...she did not grow up under the constant threat of destruction.  No she grew up as the destroyer.

So without her fathers backing from past contacts and knowledge she has tried to continue on the same way he did yet without the ability to do it and not cause a bigger conflict.

Now as to the letters sent to Malice about the Empire.  It has always been said that this WILL happen.  It has always had the threat of violence if it did not come about.

And for all the talk about Valakyrie's failures to give Oritolon enough time to process it all and talk it out and work it out and on and on... Oritolon and Malice have also failed equally in remembering one very important thing.  They are dealing with Lukon.  Impatient, violent, unrelenting Lukon.  Perhaps a better way to guide Valakyrie into what was going on inside Oritolon could have been used instead of telling her that the vote had failed and that Oritolon said no to the Empire.  To Valakyrie no means no... no does not mean "so we shall talk it to death and see what comes about later"

Now.  Revan has said that "a handful of people were making enough of a ruckus" but WHO were those hand full?  How many of those handful were former Giblot and was Robin one of those handful.  Where is Robin now?  Off in OT?  Hmm

It is all good of course.  I understand we are all just talking about the path we took and all that.  I am enjoying the best war the Colonies have seen in ages....

Revan

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #25: March 12, 2013, 12:44:44 AM »
The empire plans seemed to change and become more fleshed out as time went on. What Valakyrie said to Malice in the beginning and what she was saying later on varied quite a bit. There were definitely some crossed wires as for a little while we were operating under the assumption Oritolon could join the empire even if she didn't divide. I know it was an oversight, but it did lead to a bit of confusion.

Once Oritolon had voted no, there was no more discussion to be had. At least, as far as Malice was concerned. What happened with Thorbjorn later was, I think, a surprise for everybody. He campaigned for office saying he opposed the empire then suddenly became a supporter of it almost overnight. But by then there was a feeling in Oritolon of 'well, we've already made our bed' and talk of temporary ceasefires didn't sound right given that this was Lukon. When Thorbjorn attempted to exile Actrial, Oritolon passed the point of no return, if she had not already.

Robin was the ringleader of the protests and ruckus. He basically rallied most of the younger nobles behind him. People that hadn't even been around for the war with Minas Thalion (and, crucially, to witness what a great friend Lukon could be). It really wasn't your usual suspects. I think Robin was a very active character behind the scenes who had probably been cultivating relationships with our younger nobles for a long while on the sly. In hindsight I think he seized upon Lukon's proposals as an opportunity to try and unseat Malice but it was bad timing as Malice felt he had to do everything he could to cling on in the circumstances. Maybe this is all Malice' fault for having such a poor relationship with such an ambitious fellow?

I suppose Malice could have become a ballsy Spearhead-type figure who would stop at nothing to deliver for our Lukon friends, but Malice is a survivor who has learned to change with the weather. He made a good fist of convincing Oritolon to back the empire but once it became obvious that Oritolon wouldn't do it or that the price would be too high in delivering it, he belatedly did what Oritolon really wanted and that was to start preparing for war. And now that the war is actually happening, I can't complain too much. It has been good fun. A nice change of pace!

I still expect that eventually Lukon will have the opportunity to get the empire off the ground (and I think it will be cracking when it does) but at least we're having a good time. I tell you though, I cringe every time our forces meet. Lukon bring a lot of soldiers to each battle. I think every engagement so far I have said 'we don't have enough men, this is going to be a disaster' but we've gotten through it. The Blinded God is clearly keeping an eye on us somehow :-P

Ketchum

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #26: March 12, 2013, 01:55:43 AM »
So your saying it was not all a stall tactic designed to keep Lukon waiting while militia was stockpiled?

That Malice was not stalling, Robin was not stalling?  We were simply waiting for a vote of the people?

It was then unfortunate that the militia was being built up at the same time... as that was a key indicator that it was all a ruse to buy time for defense.
I have a feeling Valakyrie did not read Ash letters at all. Heh  ;D
Ash was stating that Oritolon need a little bit of time for the referendum to conclude.

As this matter was long past point of no return, I gladly shared some of the events here.

Alebad city did not have militia prior to Lukon first attack. Its militia was hastily raised once it became clear to Oritolon that Lukon was being deadly serious. The Iglavik region militia was just barely enough to handle monsters/undead attacks. If that was what Lukon scout reports about Oritolon raising militia. Iglavik militia was raised by Priestess May, the latest Region Lord after Art Rowan went missing due to real life.

When Actrial the Marshal noticed too many priests(Blind God, Path of Chivalry and then later on, Shadowism priests) in Oritolon and requesting for them to become warriors, Actrial was reported to the Magistrate for IR violation. With too many priests, Oritolon has barely enough nobles head count for the army to fight off Lukon.

Robin was the ringleader of the protests and ruckus. He basically rallied most of the younger nobles behind him. People that hadn't even been around for the war with Minas Thalion (and, crucially, to witness what a great friend Lukon could be). It really wasn't your usual suspects. I think Robin was a very active character behind the scenes who had probably been cultivating relationships with our younger nobles for a long while on the sly. In hindsight I think he seized upon Lukon's proposals as an opportunity to try and unseat Malice but it was bad timing as Malice felt he had to do everything he could to cling on in the circumstances. Maybe this is all Malice' fault for having such a poor relationship with such an ambitious fellow?

Ash already had an odd feeling that Robin had somehow been plotting behind the scene with others. It was long time ago when Ash was a Judge and caught Robin own brother who was in Minas Thalion during the Oritolon-Minas Thalion war. When his double-face whammy was discovered, he still dared to try weasel his way out by messaging both of us, me and our Judge Pyran at that time personally. Of course Pyran not that easy to fall for his bait and he informed Malice, our Prime Minister at that time. Being a proud loyal Oritolonian, Ash raised up this matter, included Queen Valakyrie letter as supporting evidence of Robin betrayal in the council.

What happened with Thorbjorn later was, I think, a surprise for everybody. He campaigned for office saying he opposed the empire then suddenly became a supporter of it almost overnight. But by then there was a feeling in Oritolon of 'well, we've already made our bed' and talk of temporary ceasefires didn't sound right given that this was Lukon. When Thorbjorn attempted to exile Actrial, Oritolon passed the point of no return, if she had not already.
This is the part I will never understand. Thorbjorn at first opposed the empire, suddenly become empire supporter. When he exiled Actrial the decorated war veteran for looting Lukon lands, not many nobles supported his decision.
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Valast

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #27: March 12, 2013, 04:35:18 AM »
Hmmm... do you think Thorbjorn is part of the Colonial Brotherhood?  I know that group still exists... but not sure who all is in it other than Valakyrie's brother.

Ah well.  I put a bit of pressure on Thorbjorn over the whole looting thing.  Was not real fair to Thorbjorn hehe but I wanted to continue causing chaos in Oritolon thinking perhaps it would spur another uprising to bring about someone else I could try to talk into the Empire.  I had no idea he would ban him...
..

As for the plans changing or becoming worked out more... that is because the whole goal of Empire was to bring everyone together to help create it.  I had a basic outline but wanted everyone to have input.  So I came to the rulers with the basics... then added my own thoughts to it as we went forward.  By the time I was sending letters to Malice, I had already negotiated the return of the Dark Cit to the Assassins and also the idea of a senate (and guild houses) to lead the governing body...

I also over estimated how much people read on here... and suspected more comments on the idea.

IC dont forget that Valakyrie believes she is doing what is best for Oritolon and the Colonies.  In her barbaric way she thinks that Oritolon not joining the Empire will result in OT or other realms going after Oritolon.  After all Oritolon would not have the same protection as the Imperial nations.  It could be destroyed.

ah well.  We have months of war before this thing settles one way or another. 






egamma

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #28: March 13, 2013, 12:38:07 AM »
IC dont forget that Valakyrie believes she is doing what is best for Oritolon and the Colonies.  In her barbaric way she thinks that Oritolon not joining the Empire will result in OT or other realms going after Oritolon.  After all Oritolon would not have the same protection as the Imperial nations.  It could be destroyed.

Really? My understanding was that realms in the Empire couldn't destroy any realms--whether they were in the empire or not. After all, that was the one rule that they have to abide by--no destroying realms.

Valast

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Re: Lukon vs Oritolon
« Reply #29: March 13, 2013, 02:01:13 AM »
Really? My understanding was that realms in the Empire couldn't destroy any realms--whether they were in the empire or not. After all, that was the one rule that they have to abide by--no destroying realms.

Realms of the Empire will not be allowed to destroy any realm of the Empire.  Why would the Empire give a rogue nation any protection?