Author Topic: I figured out what is wrong with Trade...and how to fix it  (Read 48819 times)

Penchant

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Adding a resource would also have an impact, especially during war. Food is every bit as justifiable as "materials" (or metal/wood/stone).

Also, on Dwi, buy offers aren't the problem. It's sell offers. There are a whole lot of lords who just couldn't be arsed to put their excess food on the markets, and as such ridiculous amounts of food are wasted to rot, just because a whole lot of people couldn't be arsed and didn't care for extra profits.

And while I get that it was intended that some people might want to hold back food to hurt others, all of the people who hold back food just because they can't be arsed to give a damn are being a real drain on the trader game.
I disagree with this sentiment partially, at least for Dwilight. There is not a bunch of surplus. Morek, the nation that has generally been considered the richest in food, is having food issues. Half of Dwilight it seems is in a drought. At the same time though, I have heard of several lords who would sit on a thousand or more bushels and just let it rot because they said it wasn't worth it, regardless of price so your not completely wrong.
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I understand where you are coming from, I had that issue when the new system was put in place.  It took quite a bit of effort, I had to work with each individual Duke to get the food on the market, but in the end, it did.
The issue is these lords are in realms with a surplus of food so those of the realm don't care that they are wasting it. It's everyone else trying to buy food from that realm that gets !@#$ed over it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 04:04:41 AM by Penchant »
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Kwanstein

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Adding a resource would also have an impact, especially during war. Food is every bit as justifiable as "materials" (or metal/wood/stone).

Also, on Dwi, buy offers aren't the problem. It's sell offers. There are a whole lot of lords who just couldn't be arsed to put their excess food on the markets, and as such ridiculous amounts of food are wasted to rot, just because a whole lot of people couldn't be arsed and didn't care for extra profits.

And while I get that it was intended that some people might want to hold back food to hurt others, all of the people who hold back food just because they can't be arsed to give a damn are being a real drain on the trader game.

In that case, it would be prudent for the banker and judge to step in and start fining incompetent Lords. Or better yet, simply kick out the looters and replace them with people who can do their job. That is one major issue with players, I find -- they simply do not care about competence, not even the slightest bit. Minor mistakes can be let slide, but for crying out loud, when a Lord has had 1,000 bushels rotting in his granary for the past month it is time to kick him out!

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I have heard of several lords who would sit on a thousand or more bushels and just let it rot because they said it wasn't worth it, regardless of price so your not completely wrong.

What does it require to put up sell offers? I can understand not wanting to waste  gold/hours on buy/sell offers that won't get touched, but if they feel like an extra 50 gold isn't worth a single click then they need to be bumped down to knight in a poor region where 50 gold means something.
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Penchant

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In that case, it would be prudent for the banker and judge to step in and start fining incompetent Lords. Or better yet, simply kick out the looters and replace them with people who can do their job. That is one major issue with players, I find -- they simply do not care about competence, not even the slightest bit. Minor mistakes can be let slide, but for crying out loud, when a Lord has had 1,000 bushels rotting in his granary for the past month it is time to kick him out!
Again, its generally in realms with a major surplus so incompetence in that department is not an issue for the realm in the least though I agree, not only for this but in general people don't care if someone has power but is incompetent as long as its not affecting something important. (If a lord had a thousand bushels and wouldn't sell while a city starved, I can definitely see them being fined until he sells) 
What does it require to put up sell offers? I can understand not wanting to waste  gold/hours on buy/sell offers that won't get touched, but if they feel like an extra 50 gold isn't worth a single click then they need to be bumped down to knight in a poor region where 50 gold means something.
if they have been at peace for awhile with a lords pay, gold becomes almost irrelevant.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 04:14:42 AM by Penchant »
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Azerax

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I disagree with this sentiment partially, at least for Dwilight. There is not a bunch of surplus. Morek, the nation that has generally been considered the richest in food, is having food issues. Half of Dwilight it seems is in a drought. At the same time though, I have heard of several lords who would sit on a thousand or more bushels and just let it rot because they said it wasn't worth it, regardless of price so your not completely wrong.The issue is these lords are in realms with a surplus of food so those of the realm don't care that they are wasting it. It's everyone else trying to buy food from that realm that gets !@#$ed over it.

If half the realm is in drought while the other half lets it waste away, this should be a reason for war.

Psyche

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As much as I love the old trade system, and even to a degree the current, it just doesn't do what it should.  If you have a neighboring realm that has a surplus of food out the ears while you're starving... you shouldn't complain that they aren't selling it.  You should DEMAND it, or go to war over it.  Food should be a competitive resource worth fighting for.  After all, food curbs starvation, and that which goes with it: loss in morale, control, loyalty, and lives.  Even if that neighbor is your dearest ally, if they are withholding food from your starving realm they are inactively contributing to your ruin.

It's not the fact that lords are incompetent when it comes to selling food, it's that diplomats, rulers, and the armies are too incompetent to GET the food.  You CAN loot for food, or even take the regions with the production and stockpiles.  Hell, if you want to be nasty about it, you can do both so that your people are well fed while their own people take a turn at starvation.  That would quickly teach them a lesson, and also impact their abilities to fight you back.

It's BATTLEMaster.  Diplomacy and RP aside, situations like what's been mentioned are a perfect cause for war. (Yes, I didn't join the bandwagon by using the over-used Latin term "casus belli" in the middle of a sentence composed otherwise entirely in English.  Errr.).

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*High fives Azerax*

Chenier

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In that case, it would be prudent for the banker and judge to step in and start fining incompetent Lords. Or better yet, simply kick out the looters and replace them with people who can do their job. That is one major issue with players, I find -- they simply do not care about competence, not even the slightest bit. Minor mistakes can be let slide, but for crying out loud, when a Lord has had 1,000 bushels rotting in his granary for the past month it is time to kick him out!

You missed what Penchant said: these lords come from heavy surplus realms. What do the ruler, judge, and banker care for other realms' food situation?

As much as I love the old trade system, and even to a degree the current, it just doesn't do what it should.  If you have a neighboring realm that has a surplus of food out the ears while you're starving... you shouldn't complain that they aren't selling it.  You should DEMAND it, or go to war over it.  Food should be a competitive resource worth fighting for.  After all, food curbs starvation, and that which goes with it: loss in morale, control, loyalty, and lives.  Even if that neighbor is your dearest ally, if they are withholding food from your starving realm they are inactively contributing to your ruin.

It's not the fact that lords are incompetent when it comes to selling food, it's that diplomats, rulers, and the armies are too incompetent to GET the food.  You CAN loot for food, or even take the regions with the production and stockpiles.  Hell, if you want to be nasty about it, you can do both so that your people are well fed while their own people take a turn at starvation.  That would quickly teach them a lesson, and also impact their abilities to fight you back.

It's BATTLEMaster.  Diplomacy and RP aside, situations like what's been mentioned are a perfect cause for war. (Yes, I didn't join the bandwagon by using the over-used Latin term "casus belli" in the middle of a sentence composed otherwise entirely in English.  Errr.).

Going to war for food is suicide. Let's set aside that the food-surplus realms are among the strongest and best-surrounded realms on the continent, the quantities one could loot is just ridiculously insufficient. You can't feed a realm on loot. And doing so would alienate a great potential seller. And it will also make every other food-surplus realms on the continent mistrust you and fear your aggressiveness. Meanwhile, other food-seeking realms are likely to exploit this and side with the food suppliers to eliminate a competitor for food sales. In other words, going to war for food is total and utter suicide.

While in theory, yea, it's nice that some regions may have surpluses and others deficit, and that it can create conflict. But it's misguided to assume that it can provoke wars for the sake of stealing food. Warring for food is not a viable strategy.
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Azerax

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You missed what Penchant said: these lords come from heavy surplus realms. What do the ruler, judge, and banker care for other realms' food situation?

Going to war for food is suicide. Let's set aside that the food-surplus realms are among the strongest and best-surrounded realms on the continent, the quantities one could loot is just ridiculously insufficient. You can't feed a realm on loot. And doing so would alienate a great potential seller. And it will also make every other food-surplus realms on the continent mistrust you and fear your aggressiveness. Meanwhile, other food-seeking realms are likely to exploit this and side with the food suppliers to eliminate a competitor for food sales. In other words, going to war for food is total and utter suicide.

While in theory, yea, it's nice that some regions may have surpluses and others deficit, and that it can create conflict. But it's misguided to assume that it can provoke wars for the sake of stealing food. Warring for food is not a viable strategy.

Perhaps, but then no one can say that Traders are broken because players choose to horde food.  (The actions of players can not cause a specific class to be broken)

Psyche

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In some stances it might be true that food suppliers are often big, but not always.



The point still stands though, that things CAN be done to put pressure on these realms.  Even if you don't outright war them, think of how bad it can look in some situations if you publicize to your peers in other realms how this other realm in your federation, or whatever your current stance is, is just sitting by idly and watching you starve.  Will you always get sympathy to where they second your call for trade?  Maybe not.  Will the other realms look at that food giant as a less dependable ally?  Most likely.
If you were the leader of such a realm, would you see to it that your friends are taken care of, or show that you don't give a damn about your relations with them and anyone else listening?  Ignoring such public calls on your dependability as a friend can be just as suicidal.

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What does it require to put up sell offers? I can understand not wanting to waste  gold/hours on buy/sell offers that won't get touched, but if they feel like an extra 50 gold isn't worth a single click then they need to be bumped down to knight in a poor region where 50 gold means something.
The lord that was doing it felt that the satisfaction of watching others starve was worth more to him than the gold that selling the food would have brought in. In fact, I think he did eventually sell a lot, by demanding that the duke that wanted the food send him extra bonds, on top of the 50/100 sale price. I'm not sure, but I think he ended up getting the equivalent of 100/100.
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Psyche

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Good for him.  Supply and demand.  He got lucky they didn't just take it.

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You can't take food from your own realm.

And no, I don't know why they didn't just ban him. (Well, they eventually did, but not for that.)
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Chenier

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Perhaps, but then no one can say that Traders are broken because players choose to horde food.  (The actions of players can not cause a specific class to be broken)

But it's not choice, it's not action. They don't chose to hold it back, they just can't be bothered to give a damn. It's apathy, inaction. A lot of people just don't want to bother with food. And since automatic deals were removed, and that deals can no longer last more than 14 days, a lot of people just decided "to heck with it". As such, to Tom and the Devs, they see huge surpluses that they need to crush. Which results in massive starvations elsewhere. Not because people are intentionally trying to starve others, but because the players don't see a reason to bother putting any time into it and OOC decisions by Tom and the Devs result in other realms hurting. Morek's apathetic rural lords didn't starve D'Hara, Tom did. D'Hara was doing quite fine before the food production values and warehouse stocks started to be toyed with.

I'm not whining about Tom's decision, but you cannot say that this is the result of choices by the players. It's the result of purely OOC factors: 1) the food game being too onerous to a large part of the player base and 2) this apathy skews statistics and make it seem, theoretically, that the trade game is suffering from an imbalance in a supply/offer ratio and 3) that the apathy for food is mistakenly believed to be purely a result of its overabundance.

There were many starvation episodes in the South that were not the result of OOC action. And some OOC action that helped reduce or prevent them (population rebalance). But for the trader game to be viable, you need a buyer and a seller. Need creates the buyer, sure. But greed was seriously overestimated, and laziness seriously underestimated. Since the birth of D'Hara, in many realms, the greatest barrier to trade from important producing realms never seemed to be ill intent, but outright apathy. It's surprising how many people don't care to turn food rot into profit. Who are the buyers to trade with if most of the sellers don't care for profits and thus, don't care to sell their food?

Save a few exceptions, only formal realm-to-realm seems to be a real source of trade deals. Traders, on their own, have a tough life. And a not very rewarding one at that.

In some stances it might be true that food suppliers are often big, but not always.



The point still stands though, that things CAN be done to put pressure on these realms.  Even if you don't outright war them, think of how bad it can look in some situations if you publicize to your peers in other realms how this other realm in your federation, or whatever your current stance is, is just sitting by idly and watching you starve.  Will you always get sympathy to where they second your call for trade?  Maybe not.  Will the other realms look at that food giant as a less dependable ally?  Most likely.
If you were the leader of such a realm, would you see to it that your friends are taken care of, or show that you don't give a damn about your relations with them and anyone else listening?  Ignoring such public calls on your dependability as a friend can be just as suicidal.

You assume that one only ever needs to buy from allies. Sure, you can scorn them if they watch you starve... but then again, good luck without allies. However, in most cases, they can't supply enough. Are you seriously saying that when D'Hara starves, it should go declare war on Morek? You speak in general terms that have no practical application. And in any case, a realm that is starving is a realm unable to wage war.
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Kwanstein

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The lord that was doing it felt that the satisfaction of watching others starve was worth more to him than the gold that selling the food would have brought in. In fact, I think he did eventually sell a lot, by demanding that the duke that wanted the food send him extra bonds, on top of the 50/100 sale price. I'm not sure, but I think he ended up getting the equivalent of 100/100.

What are the odds that the price cap could be raised to 100/100? In many cases, it seems like 50/100 is underselling. I don't see any reason as to why it's so low.