Author Topic: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers  (Read 32084 times)

Geronus

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #60: February 07, 2013, 07:11:40 PM »
Okay thank you, then I'd like Tom to perhaps comment on this case.

I realize under the current rules it is NOT allowed. It's specifically a rule change/reasons I'm looking for.

I would recommend emailing him or PMing him directly with that request. As others have also observed, the way the rule is currently written I don't see any room for exceptions, and I'm not entirely familiar with the rationale behind the rule. This is the first time I can recall a discussion on the topic in my nearly 5 years of playing, so I don't think I've ever had an opportunity to hear Tom's viewpoint on it directly from him.

Tom

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #61: February 07, 2013, 11:16:36 PM »
Common sense is what tells you the earth is flat. And yet, for most cases it's a pretty good approximation.

What is the intention behind disallowing realm mergers and strategic secessions? To enforce things that in the real world would not need enforcement. Very few kings would willingly stop being king. You didn't get to that job if you didn't have an ego too large to fit through a regular door.

But, we can not simulate reality that well. What you lose in the game is a fancy title and a bit of feel-good. That doesn't compare to not, you know, being the freaking king of France anymore. People have killed and died for just having a shot at that job. King routinely had their countries destroyed before even considering steping down. The common king, if asked if he'd rather die himself or see 50,000 of his subjects slaughtered, wouldn't even understand why you ask such a stupid question.

Realm mergers and secessions historically were almost always accompanied by warfare. Either before or after.

But, we can not simulate what it means to lose or gain the throne in the game. So we have to remind you that these are BIG decisions by pointing out that this purely strategic thinking is something you can do from up high, but very few people do when they are involved.


Now apply that philosophy to the case at hand. Here is what I believe would happen most likely if this were the real world: The weaker realm would split up, forced as it was to and not having much of a choice. The two parts would have friendly relations, only being hindered to re-unite because the allies forbid it. Over time, though, both would come to think of themselves as the only real successor realm, looking forward to the day they can re-absorb the other part. Of course, since both of them think that, there's a bit of conflict there. Then one day, the political climate changes, the iron curtain comes down, the people want to be re-united with their relatives and tear down the Berlin Wall... err... wait... wrong world. You see what I'm getting at?

Yes, under these special circumstances, a peaceful reunification would make sense, and thus not violate the spirit of the rule, !@#$ the words. However, there is also potential for conflict, because one of the parts will have to give up its identity, and hopefully neither will find that very easy to do. All it takes is one generation of players who came in after the split and never experienced the joint realm, and they will identify with their part, not with the old whole.


lechim-michel

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #62: February 08, 2013, 01:12:28 AM »
So Lyonesse is not allowed to join Eston again? Even not if we RP That all nobles are loyal to the Old Kingdom and wish to rebuild it? Or when we RP something else?

I just had a lot of fun and i liked the atmosphere in this bigger Eston and i would really like it for bolt IC, RP and OOC to reunite again, and as far as i've seen many others aswell. If it is not allowed to merge realms that have been forced to split up it also shoudn't be allowed to force them t split up.

Also this is a big lack in our RP you force nobles to choise between there land and there home while they can have bolt. I prefer to RP that the realms unite under the Eston banner again because the nobles are wishing to rebuild the Old Kingdom again and to hunt after there claims of Belegrond and Barad Riel.
Muruqua's are born to be great and conquer the word but with the war cry they will come to defend there home the realm of Eston.


Geronus

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #64: February 08, 2013, 01:28:36 AM »
So Lyonesse is not allowed to join Eston again? Even not if we RP That all nobles are loyal to the Old Kingdom and wish to rebuild it? Or when we RP something else?

I just had a lot of fun and i liked the atmosphere in this bigger Eston and i would really like it for bolt IC, RP and OOC to reunite again, and as far as i've seen many others aswell. If it is not allowed to merge realms that have been forced to split up it also shoudn't be allowed to force them t split up.

Also this is a big lack in our RP you force nobles to choise between there land and there home while they can have bolt. I prefer to RP that the realms unite under the Eston banner again because the nobles are wishing to rebuild the Old Kingdom again and to hunt after there claims of Belegrond and Barad Riel.

If you read Tom's statement closely, I believe he has informed you that reunification under these very special circumstances would not violate the spirit of the rule.

lechim-michel

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #65: February 08, 2013, 01:34:42 AM »
If you read Tom's statement closely, I believe he has informed you that reunification under these very special circumstances would not violate the spirit of the rule.
But is this such a case?
Muruqua's are born to be great and conquer the word but with the war cry they will come to defend there home the realm of Eston.

Penchant

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #66: February 08, 2013, 01:50:55 AM »
But is this such a case?
Yes it is. !@#$ the words, based on the spirit it is allowed when said by Tom would mean exactly that, meaning it is allowed.
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Geronus

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #67: February 08, 2013, 01:54:02 AM »
But is this such a case?

Sure it is. Good luck with the Empire though if you jump the gun too early...

Penchant

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #68: February 08, 2013, 03:06:01 AM »
Sure it is. Good luck with the Empire though if you jump the gun too early...
Its called follow the treaty. Have no more of an army than what is needed for monsters/undead. Save gold for the future/work on military infrastructure. After the 6-9 months reunite and see what the situation is like. Maybe they do war games like Arcaea's empire is planning (I think though that's a very general, in the future kind of thing nothing specifically).
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Eldargard

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #69: February 08, 2013, 08:17:27 AM »
I would hope, however, that the nobles of the new realm at least consider the possibility of starting to like their new found independence/power/identity and be willing to fight for it. Or even begin to believe that the merger should happen, but by Easton joining them and not the other way around. I am not saying that merger should not happen but I do think that it would be a bad thing to close the door on another route that might be as much or more fun and realistic!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 08:18:58 AM by Unwin »

Draco Tanos

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #70: February 08, 2013, 08:18:52 AM »
It's not really independence when it's thrust upon them.  Is being cast out of your home independence?

jaune

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #71: February 08, 2013, 08:54:54 AM »
Hrmph, it is not the game which is forcing you to split, it is evil empire which do so... you accept it? Then you have split realm... if you want to be back big Eston, conquer the other one... if it gives up one reason or a another good then, if not force them.

Infact one thing popped up on my head earlier... if duchies would always be "independent" and dukes would just decide if they are Rulers or swearing fealty to another Duke, which would make them then King/Prime Minister/Tyrant or what ever... and then they are federated... but still each duchy would have its own RC's, own nobles, nobles would be Lyonessens more than Estonites. Elections would be run through federation...

It would increase the power of Dukes even more, but bright side would be that it would make diffrence if you are from Massilion or Azzal. So, basicly all "realms" would be more or less empires... united duchies... with some own identity.

Could be that i got carried away a bit... but it would make it harder to control big empires... and more difficult to handel big armies.

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vonGenf

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #72: February 08, 2013, 09:10:20 AM »
it is not the game which is forcing you to split, it is evil empire which do so... you accept it?

There's a point to be made for that argument. CE has forced the creation of Lyonesse through military means, we know that.

Nobles currently in Lyonesse who see themselves as thoroughly Estonian have two choices (three if you count not respecting the treaty):

-They can immediately leave their lands and rejoin Eston. They lose lands, but duh, they lost the war.

-They can remain in Lyonesse and not be Estonian anymore. They lose their identity, but duh, they lost the war.

That's basically the choice that CE is forcing upon them. It's fair.

(Note that I'm talking about a knight who wishes to be in a situation where his oath corresponds to his beliefs. There is nothing wrong with joining one realm but secretly working with another.)
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Geronus

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #73: February 08, 2013, 03:40:58 PM »
I would hope, however, that the nobles of the new realm at least consider the possibility of starting to like their new found independence/power/identity and be willing to fight for it. Or even begin to believe that the merger should happen, but by Easton joining them and not the other way around. I am not saying that merger should not happen but I do think that it would be a bad thing to close the door on another route that might be as much or more fun and realistic!

There is certainly a possibility that this happens. Enough player turnover could easily lead to a shift in attitude. I think we should all be content to let it play out.

LilWolf

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Re: Forced Realm Splits and Voluntary Realm Mergers
« Reply #74: February 08, 2013, 04:53:48 PM »
There is certainly a possibility that this happens. Enough player turnover could easily lead to a shift in attitude. I think we should all be content to let it play out.

6-9 months does not make for much player turnover in current BM. You probably won't get any to be honest, at least not where it matters and those being the positions of power. You're all ignoring that it is the oldest and most trustworthy characters running this entire thing. If they say they'll re-unite when the term is over then that's what will happen.
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