Author Topic: Why can't priests fight?  (Read 11519 times)

Anaris

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #15: February 16, 2013, 09:56:27 PM »
It's not just about instant travel. It's about having different classes that are actually different.

If you don't want to play a priest, then don't play a priest. But don't come crying because you can't convert peasants and run auto da fes.

You haven't, as far as I've noticed, addressed the point that other classes have things only they can do, too. Why are you not asking for Warriors to be able to sneak into people's tents and attack them? After all, it's something Warriors could do in the period, if they wanted to.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Foxglove

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #16: February 16, 2013, 10:03:21 PM »
I am asking - again - why instant travel is a feature particular to the priest class. I am not asking that it be taken away or expanded or even changed. I suppose I don't understand it: you have here a game whose entire functional basis is turns and hours per day. You then make an exception to the system governing the whole game. I presume this is for a good reason, and so I am curious what that reason is.

This is just a pure guess on my part, but the guess would be that the instant travel (and the whole priest class) is designed to attract a broader range of players. With the instant travel you can play at a completely different pace to normal. I know of several players who exclusively play priest characters, and some who exclusively play adventurers, because they like the way the gameplay works for those classes. So that would be my guess - the instant travel is designed to appeal to a different type of player.

Draco Tanos

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #17: February 16, 2013, 10:05:58 PM »
To supplement Chenier's suggestion, I'd recommend that Heroes could change to that subclass, and vice versa.  They would automatically change into Heroes from that Crusader subclass if their religion was dissolved or they were removed (like is what is supposed to happen with priests).

Scarlett

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #18: February 16, 2013, 10:08:05 PM »
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Why are you not asking for Warriors to be able to sneak into people's tents and attack them?

I am not asking for anything.  I put it in bold, so maybe you'll believe me this time. I wasn't around when priests first came out and I've never played one. I am merely curious about the reasoning for some of the gameplay mechanics. There is not an '...and so you should change it' attached. It's true that it's not what I would have thought of but so is half of BM and somehow we all get by.

I've never played an infiltrator but I don't see any particular reason to stop warriors from sneaking around and stabbing people. They'd probably just stink at it, like most medieval warriors would unless they had a lot of practice with skulduggery. They'd also stink at converting people, though that didn't stop them from trying.

On a purely theoretical level, you could make a case for removing class entirely: if somebody wants to priest-ify you, you're a priest. If you want to stab people in the dark, go for it. But I'm not a dev and I'm not interested in fighting that battle: I'm interested in how you came about to how and why things are they are, if you can process an academic question for its own sake that isn't serving some secret agenda. Hence the title of the thread as a question and my first post indicating ignorance as the source of my question.

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Were there never Prince-Archbishops?  Were they not essentially Dukes?

There were indeed, but in my hypothetical non-argument I'm trying to balance how things actually were with BM's religious system and gameplay requirements.

Basically, priesthood was a kind of backup career for nobles - it's one of the things you did if you weren't going to inherit a lot of land or money or else somebody wanted you out of the line of inheritance. But once you were in, there were huge power struggles and lots of land and money to be handed out, of which Prince-Bishops and particularly Prince-Archbishoprics were some of the nicest.

They were still not terribly common, though, so while you'd want to capture the possibility of a landed, fighting priest, you'd need to allow for the fact that this would be sort of the top of the priest game, not the everyday priest game.

I agree that restrictions wouldn't make much sense in theocracies, but then there weren't really any medieval theocratic 'realms' - just fiefs (like Prince-Bishoprics) other than the Vatican, which was still pretty big and could feasibly constitute a BM realm.

One of the big conflicts of the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages was the perception that it was completely obsessed with secular power and wealth and thus disconnected from the spiritual needs of, well, everybody. For many decades huge portions, an easy majority, didn't even bother to act otherwise. But wading directly into secular politics tended to spark a lot of the latent resentment about this, which is one reason that the Templars were ultimately rooted out and destroyed by the King of France and his Pocket Pope. So you had the Prince-Bishops with a fair amount of local influence but not usually far-reaching.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 10:12:17 PM by Scarlett »

Chenier

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #19: February 16, 2013, 10:13:15 PM »
To supplement Chenier's suggestion, I'd recommend that Heroes could change to that subclass, and vice versa.  They would automatically change into Heroes from that Crusader subclass if their religion was dissolved or they were removed (like is what is supposed to happen with priests).

I considered proposing as much. Not sure what feels best, though. Mortality makes heroes unique, and not being able to switch out of morality mode is a big part of it (although you can always become a priest to avoid the risk of death in battle).
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Longmane

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #20: February 16, 2013, 10:31:39 PM »
Given how much you can get away with, you can also roleplay yourself leading the unwashed masses as if they were the troops under your command. Cid did that during his various crusades and inquisitions.

Heck there were actually instances during the medieval ages when priests "did indeed lead their own troops into battle", even if they themselves never took an active part in the fight itself, either as members of a small army they'd raised and payed for, or else one done so by their bishop/Duke ect.

I really do feel that we need a religious subclass for warriors. Knights should be able to actively get involved in religions as more than money bags. They should be able to get a crusader subclass, similar to the hero subclass.

If the knights a lord why not have them form an army themselves and simply designate it a holy order of some kind?, after that it would just be a matter of him/her attempting persuade other Knights/warriors with the same religious fervour want to join it.
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Chenier

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #21: February 16, 2013, 10:45:15 PM »
If the knights a lord why not have them form an army themselves and simply designate it a holy order of some kind?, after that it would just be a matter of him/her attempting persuade other Knights/warriors with the same religious fervour want to join it.

I don't get what you are trying to say.
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Scarlett

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #22: February 16, 2013, 10:55:09 PM »
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, even if they themselves never took an active part in the fight itself,

Well, they did take active part in battle. They weren't supposed to spill blood, so they'd bash skulls (hence the RPG cleric). Julius II was even a fighting Pope.

It was unusual though. Just not unheard of.

Tom

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #23: February 16, 2013, 11:39:43 PM »
I am asking - again - why instant travel is a feature particular to the priest class.

Because priests have a lot less to do than other classes and without being able to act/travel/act-again, it would be horribly boring to play one.

Anaris

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #24: February 17, 2013, 12:07:35 AM »
I am not asking for anything.  I put it in bold, so maybe you'll believe me this time. I wasn't around when priests first came out and I've never played one. I am merely curious about the reasoning for some of the gameplay mechanics. There is not an '...and so you should change it' attached. It's true that it's not what I would have thought of but so is half of BM and somehow we all get by.

Aside from what Tom just said:

Priests can not fight to make absolutely clear that they are intended to be a different type of play than the regular Warrior/Courtier types.
Timothy Collett

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Bedwyr

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #25: February 17, 2013, 08:28:22 AM »
If the knights a lord why not have them form an army themselves and simply designate it a holy order of some kind?, after that it would just be a matter of him/her attempting persuade other Knights/warriors with the same religious fervour want to join it.

I've seen that done, any number of times, most recently in Riombara.  I'm not getting this whole discussion, really.  Jenred may well have been the most actively religious member of the MAE for some years, despite not being a Priest until last week, and I've certainly seen any number of Priests who cared barely at best for their religion.  It's just a different set of class options.
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Scarlett

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #26: February 17, 2013, 11:28:39 PM »
How do priests travel to places between regions that require more than 12 hours?

Bedwyr

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #27: February 17, 2013, 11:38:29 PM »
How do priests travel to places between regions that require more than 12 hours?

They have a sixteen hour pool for starters (and accumulate hours at one hour per real world hour, at least until you get old when it slows down), and if it's more than that, then you have to have a full time pool and just make the attempt to travel.
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Anaris

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #28: February 18, 2013, 01:31:20 AM »
They have a sixteen hour pool for starters (and accumulate hours at one hour per real world hour, at least until you get old when it slows down), and if it's more than that, then you have to have a full time pool and just make the attempt to travel.

To clarify: If the trip is more than 16 hours, you wait until you have 16 hours, and start traveling. It will subtract your entire time pool from the number of hours you have to travel, then each time you would gain an hour, it instead gets applied to your travel time. Once you're 1 hour away from your destination, you start accumulating hours again, and then at the next turn change, you arrive.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Eldargard

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Re: Why can't priests fight?
« Reply #29: February 19, 2013, 07:52:18 PM »
Warrior = Fighter
Priest = Preacher
Either can equal priest makes sense to me. It is up to the elders of a religion to give religious titles and responsibilities to people. What I am not sure about is why only priests can be founders, enlarge temples and why half of elders must be priests. It would be cool if those rights could be given to anyone.