I Hate Food

[Dante Silverfire]

Sell offers are so rare...

This statement is very narrow minded. It looks at one specific case on a continent. Here's the reason: The way that this system works is that it is highly likely that ONLY buy offers will be on the market, or ONLY sale offers will be on the market in the steady state long term. Quite simply if the rural lords are more engaged, then there will be more sell offers as city lords only need to fill the orders themselves and not place their own. If the city lords are more engaged there will be a lot of buy offers, and the rural lords can simply fill.

This is the obvious outcome of the current system if lords want to maximize their gold gain. They can cut out the middleman of a trader by doing so themselves. However, it takes more effort.

For instance, my experience with the system on Atamara was that there were never any buy offers in my area. Only sell offers. Which worked great because I'm lord of a city.

Each geographic trading area will tend towards one of the extremes after it has been in practice long term. (Current system)

[Zakilevo]

I welcome all comments to improve the food system.

I won't consider suggestions to make it less important. You see, food was probably THE most important resource before the modern age, with regular famines and all that happening. Feeding an army was the #1 logistics challenge of most ancient and middle-ages warlords.

Yes it was. Harassing your enemy's supply line was always important. Also, armies plundered conquered regions to replenish their food and supplies. Foraging was very important during the era. Maybe there should be a supply train for enemies to harass. It doesn't have to be fancy. Maybe bankers or generals can set up a supply line on the map or make a temporary building where you can store your food and equipment for a quick refit. Gold shouldn't be allowed to be stored to give the defending side time to prepare as well. At the moment, food doesn't play much role other than feeding regions. If it is going to stay like that it might as well be just automatic. It is causing nothing but annoyance for many.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I was extremely frustrated when the new trading system went in because it removed pretty much everything I did as a banker and a trader.  Since then I've adapted, had to work more with Dukes/Duchess and adapted.

Perhaps Atamara is different but I have no issue buying and selling food outside of my Kingdom - perhaps my extreme range helps, but food availability isn't a big deal.

The only thing I really, really miss is the black market.  I used to be able to stick food in a starving region without a Lord (just after a take over), which I can't do.

Anyways, just seems people are frustrated with other players hoarding food, and not the game mechanic itself.

I am in favor with auto-buy and auto-sell as it adds flexibility to the system.

Atamara is probably different, especially since it does not have seasons like Dwilight and Far East.

[Penchant]

This statement is very narrow minded. It looks at one specific case on a continent. Here's the reason: The way that this system works is that it is highly likely that ONLY buy offers will be on the market, or ONLY sale offers will be on the market in the steady state long term. Quite simply if the rural lords are more engaged, then there will be more sell offers as city lords only need to fill the orders themselves and not place their own. If the city lords are more engaged there will be a lot of buy offers, and the rural lords can simply fill.

This is the obvious outcome of the current system if lords want to maximize their gold gain. They can cut out the middleman of a trader by doing so themselves. However, it takes more effort.

For instance, my experience with the system on Atamara was that there were never any buy offers in my area. Only sell offers. Which worked great because I'm lord of a city.

Each geographic trading area will tend towards one of the extremes after it has been in practice long term. (Current system)

Which is why lords should be able to post offers anywhere. This problem need not exist if they could lords/stewards can post offers regardless of where they are. A main reason of this is because the lord already has to travel to a marketplace to place an offer, so if someone already has your complementing offer posted why make one and wait for a trader instead of just doing the deal now. You saying it takes extra effort is actually false. They are just wasting effort if they don't do what you are saying. They already have to go to a marketplace.

[Eldargard]

My frustration with the system is the constant attention it requires. It shouldn't need that. Yes, food should eb important, I get that. But it shouldn't be a constant fight for the people that need the food to convince the people that have the food to sell it. They should want to sell it, to get the money.

Perhaps what we need is to make rural regions produce less gold, and thus give the lords more incentive to want to sell their food. That way their apathy toward selling their food would hit them in the wallet.

I On one hand, this makes sense. On the other hand I am unsure this would do a rural Lord any favors. What about the realm that has made it illegal for lords to sell food outside the realm and push the lords into selling food for really cheap prices? When my character became a region lord of a rural, I was looking forward to bringing in extra income via food. Then I found that the existing food culture made it difficult to turn much of a profit without putting the lordship at risk. I have been slowly working on changing this but it is taking time.

I think this is a two fold problem. If you want to drop rural lords income, you also need to consider the 'food belongs to the realm so just give it to me' problem...

[Penchant]

What's the price you want them to pay? What's the price they want to pay?

[Eldargard]

Here is how I could see the suggestions made thus far working together:

• Allow lords to set auto sell orders from anywhere. Unless one is at a market, however, they can not see what buy/sell offers are currently out and about. An auto sell offer would look like "Keep XX bushels and sell all extra at XX gold per Bushel to Anyone|Kingdom|Duchy|Region".  Only allow one auto sell order. After setting an auto sell order a sell offer will appear for AVAILABLE_FOOD - AMMOUNT_TO_SAVE on the market matching the parameters provided. Once AVAILABLE_FOOD - AMMOUNT_TO_SAVE == 0, the sell offer will disappear. Like with other offers, the extra food is taken from the granery and placed on the market.
• Allow lords to set auto buy offers from anywhere. Once again, seeing market trends is not possible unless at a market. Something like "Buy food at XX per bushel from Anyone|Kingdom|Duchy|Region until the granaries contain XXX bushels". Only allow one auto buy order. Then add a region Food Fund. Region lords must pump money into it. This can be done within the region or at a bank. All auto bought food would be paid for out of this fund. The buy offers would be limited based on food needed and money available. If an auto buy order is present and gold is present in the Food Fund a buy offer is placed on the market to purchase the lesser of GOLD_FUND / GOLD_PER_BUSHEL or AMMOUNT_TO_BUY - AVAILABLE_FOOD bushels of food at the rates specified in the buy order. Once GOLD_FUND / GOLD_PER_BUSHEL < 1 or AMMOUNT_TO_BUY - AVAILABLE_FOOD < 1, the buy offer will disappear. Gold can not be removed from the Food Fund if an auto buy order is in place.
• Allow buy and sell orders to be partially filled. Auto offers will always be for maximum values and will seldom match up. Therefore allow a lord/trader to buy or sell some of an offer.

That is my proposal. Probably a few problems with it but there it is.

[Eldargard]

What's the price you want them to pay? What's the price they want to pay?

I want as much gold as I can manage to get. They want to spend 20 gold per 100 bushels. So I refuse to full their buy offers and post my own sell offers. They can take it or leave it. I plan on working on other avenues that will hopefully help in changing the trend but that is my start. In the past, however, I have always had to fight against a "Come on, you should be happy to give our cities all the food they want for free. After all, you do not want to gouge your fellow nobles do you?" mentality in a few of countries. Hell, as a Duke in Barcs, I had to fight against several nobles just to pay the rural lords a fair amount for the food they gave me. What about those rich bastards gouging the guy with the poor income???

[Penchant]

What's the price you have been posting for your sell offers?

[Eldargard]

I have started at 35gold per 100. I am making sales so not too many complaints. I still want to see the 'keep it in the kingdom' policy relaxed and to see other rural lords do more than fill orders for a measly 20 gold per 100 bushels. All in time I hope.

My main concern is that if you cut rural lord's income they will have a hard time getting the money they need. Not all countries are cool with a free market. I like the idea as cutting income will certainly give motivation to sell but it could make it doesn't help if the realm pushes a 20 gold per 100 bushels agenda. Sure, we have the power to enact change and all that, but how many region lords will even care to try. Might as well stay the knight of a city, get more money and not worry about it. Then who sells the food?

[vonGenf]

My main concern is that if you cut rural lord's income they will have a hard time getting the money they need. Not all countries are cool with a free market. I like the idea as cutting income will certainly give motivation to sell but it could make it doesn't help if the realm pushes a 20 gold per 100 bushels agenda. Sure, we have the power to enact change and all that, but how many region lords will even care to try. Might as well stay the knight of a city, get more money and not worry about it. Then who sells the food?

Which is why food is important. It decentralizes the realm by giving leverage to more people. It doesn't forbid centralize realms either, but it forces centralizers to actually work to enforce their rule and not rely on "It's always been that way, for the good of the realm!".

[Chenier]

This statement is very narrow minded. It looks at one specific case on a continent. Here's the reason: The way that this system works is that it is highly likely that ONLY buy offers will be on the market, or ONLY sale offers will be on the market in the steady state long term. Quite simply if the rural lords are more engaged, then there will be more sell offers as city lords only need to fill the orders themselves and not place their own. If the city lords are more engaged there will be a lot of buy offers, and the rural lords can simply fill.

This is the obvious outcome of the current system if lords want to maximize their gold gain. They can cut out the middleman of a trader by doing so themselves. However, it takes more effort.

For instance, my experience with the system on Atamara was that there were never any buy offers in my area. Only sell offers. Which worked great because I'm lord of a city.

Each geographic trading area will tend towards one of the extremes after it has been in practice long term. (Current system)

In any case, there's still none of one type of offer, though a lack of buy offers is better as you know that some people will be manually doing the purchases anyways and you can set up your sell offers in consequence.

In any case, I found trade much more enjoyable back when everything was automated, and had much more success trading, both in food surplus and deficit realms on different continents.

[Tom]

I believe we can solve the food issues without compromising the existing system with two fairly simple changes:


One, allow lords to create (but not accept) trade postings while away. This way they do not have to stay at home, but to complete a trade it needs either someone staying at home or a trader. The whole realm could be away on a war with a few traders back home brokering all the trade deals the lords post.

Two, allow lords to post future trades. In addition to an end date, you can also give them a start date. For simplicity, one to four weeks in the future. That way, you can deal with food once a month and be done with it.


This would allow for the usual recipe of making things less hassle but if you invest the time to micro-manage, there's a small advantage in it. And it would still require intentional actions instead of automation and "not my problem".

[vonGenf]

For simplicity, one to four weeks in the future.

Does it really make it so much simpler to limit it to four weeks? I understand the need not to make it infinite, but why not make it 12 weeks or 1 BM year?

[Anaris]

This would allow for the usual recipe of making things less hassle but if you invest the time to micro-manage, there's a small advantage in it. And it would still require intentional actions instead of automation and "not my problem".

I think part of the problem, Tom, is that a lot of rural Lords consider it to be "not their problem."

They don't care about selling their food. They don't even want to put in effort once a month. They want to be able to tell their region, "Sell all the food over 200 bushels in the granary for 20 gold per hundred" once, then leave it forever.

And because of the current noble:region ratio, we can't reasonably say at the moment, "Well, they accepted the Lordship, they need to accept the duties that come with it."

They'd rather just say "screw it" and let the food rot and the cities starve, because it doesn't affect them in any way.