Author Topic: Company of the Black Sun  (Read 12869 times)

Kwanstein

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #15: March 04, 2013, 05:30:24 AM »
So...you're angling to get force-deported, then, are you?

Mercenaries led by high nobles are not SMA. This is absolutely, 100% inappropriate for Dwilight.

Which I'm reasonably sure I've told you before.

Ah, that is good to know, for now I shall be able to avoid setting my unit to mercenary in the future, thereby evading forced deportation.

Hroppa

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #16: March 04, 2013, 05:58:55 PM »
Finding examples of noble led mercenaries between 700 and 1300 AD is complicated mainly by the fact that the concept of 'noble' in that period (especially towards the start) was much more fluid than it is in Battlemaster...

Bjarnson

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #17: March 04, 2013, 06:12:12 PM »
The Varangian Guard was a mercenary bodyguard unit in the Byzantine empire. Mostly made out of Vikings, and among Vikings you where a noble if you held enough land for farming and maintaining men and ships. Um, not sure if I am helping here. But basicly.

Viking noble gather his men on his longboat, goes to Turkey, serves as bodyguard for a couple of years, get paid richly, returns home and increases his land.

**edit** And they were active during 10th to the 14th century.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:55:26 PM by Sir Grimrog Bjarnson »
King Grimrog Bjarnson of Asylon.

Lorgan

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1185
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #18: March 04, 2013, 06:15:03 PM »
Which I'm reasonably sure I've told you before.

Indeed, months ago you told me that I'd have to find historical examples. I wasn't ready at all to found it yet so I quickly looked it up and found that Duke Werner von Urslingen, satisfied I considered it done and kind of forgot about it... That it's till 1300 will make this a tad more difficult but I'll be looking for better examples.

That said, I do not think this company would hurt the medieval atmosphere of Dwilight. It's just a place for people who don't care about the heavy, heavy politicking on Dwilight and just wish to fight, continuously. It doesn't hurt the politicking people in any way and even provides them with more tools. An ambitious King of a smaller realm could hire us to finally rise up against his bigger neighbour. A King of a big realm could use us for his reign of oppression. A Duke to support his secession or rebellion. Or some grand schemer to shape the continent to his hand.
The war on Aurvandil can't unite the continent forever. Either Aurvandil will die and other conflicts will ensue or the currently deadlocked continent will break open and an army for sale may just be the thing to speed up either of those courses and bring the continent more dynamic again.

Besides, mercenaries were a very common sight in much if not all of BM's period, it's more unmedieval to not have them than it is to go a little outside of that period for actual prominent nobility to join mercenary ventures and allow this to be player driven.

Edit: And that doesn't mean that these mercenaries can't be scorned for being landless and fighting for gold. Others don't have to see us as upright citizens, we're not. We don't aspire to become lord or duke of a realm, we're happy being knights and fighting.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:22:02 PM by Lorgan »

Kwanstein

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #19: March 04, 2013, 07:18:45 PM »
The idea that there was a uniform code to which all nobility adhered is ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous when you consider how loosely other aspects of the game are expected to mirror history. So, riding around the kingdom, fighting undead in the name of the Supreme Chancellor is historically accurate, but a noble who sells his military service in exchange for wealth isn't. Never mind the fact that that's literally what nobles did, it is still historically false, based on some vague, perhaps even non-existent, interpretation of Europe circa 700-1300AD.

Solari

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 968
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #20: March 04, 2013, 07:21:03 PM »
This is silliness. There exists ample historical evidence placing mercenary companies—even ones led by high nobility—well within the span of time being given. There's even a name for these things: Routiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routiers). Some other examples pulled out of my head on the spot. Condottieri were active before 1300, as early as 1212. William the Conqueror made liberal use of Flemish mercenaries. William of Ypres, Earl of Kent, organized and led an entire cohort of them for King Stephen of England from 1139 to 1154. The Byzantine Empire institutionalized the Varangian Guard, which for quite some time was commanded by the future king of Norway, Harald III.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 07:26:06 PM by Solari »

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #21: March 04, 2013, 07:41:45 PM »
Whatever you may think of the idea, the fact remains that Tom has explicitly stated his opposition to mercenary nobles, especially under SMA.

So the burden of proof is on Lorgan to show that it should be allowed, and Tom is the one you need to convince.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

vonGenf

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #22: March 04, 2013, 07:47:33 PM »
Whatever you may think of the idea, the fact remains that Tom has explicitly stated his opposition to mercenary nobles, especially under SMA.

So the burden of proof is on Lorgan to show that it should be allowed, and Tom is the one you need to convince.

I remember that Tom has stated his opposition to mercenary as a new class, and also to making in any way easier to play the game as a rogue. None of this is asked here however. Fighting for money is extremely common, this is just calling it by its name.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #23: March 04, 2013, 07:49:06 PM »
I remember that Tom has stated his opposition to mercenary as a new class, and also to making in any way easier to play the game as a rogue. None of this is asked here however.

He has also stated his belief that nobles acting as mercenaries would not be fitting.

Quote
Fighting for money is extremely common, this is just calling it by its name.

And that makes a world of difference. Especially in the sort of setting we're supposed to be playing on Dwilight.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Perth

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2037
  • Current Character: Kemen
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #24: March 04, 2013, 08:10:16 PM »
Of all the non SMA crap that goes on in Dwilight, I'm bewildered as to why someone RPing a Mercenary company is this big a deal.

I'm not saying it is kosher SMA, I'm just saying their is a lot of other worse stuff that goes on that nobody really seems to care about.
"A tale is but half told when only one person tells it." - The Saga of Grettir the Strong
- Current: Kemen (D'hara) - Past: Kerwin (Eston), Kale (Phantaria, Terran, Melodia)

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #25: March 04, 2013, 08:16:34 PM »
Of all the non SMA crap that goes on in Dwilight, I'm bewildered as to why someone RPing a Mercenary company is this big a deal.

I'm not saying it is kosher SMA, I'm just saying their is a lot of other worse stuff that goes on that nobody really seems to care about.

First: Just because Person A is doing something bad and being ignored doesn't mean that when Person B announces his intention to do something bad, we should ignore him, too.

Second: If you believe there are SMA infractions occurring on Dwilight, report them to the Titans.

That's what the SMA Report button on the Messages page is for. You don't get to complain about people doing non-SMA things on Dwilight and nothing happening about it if you know about it and don't report it yourself.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Eduardo Almighty

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 787
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #26: March 04, 2013, 10:48:49 PM »
Everytime some people say: "Tom said it...", believe me, it's better to ask him again and now you have a Forum and the thread right here to try to get his direct answer. It's always better than: "I remember he said..."

In my opinion the Varangian Guard is a perfect example for someone seeking examples as foundations to agree or not with this idea.
Now with the Skovgaard Family... and it's gone.
Serpentis again!

Tandaros

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #27: March 04, 2013, 10:51:04 PM »
I have to echo other people's doubts, this does not seem like an SMA violation. There are plenty of medieval examples of noble mercenaries and it seems like very fitting for the Battlemaster world, heck, especially in the unstable powderkeg that is Dwilight. I think the examples supplied in this thread are enough to support it fits in a Serious Medieval Atmosphere.

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #28: March 04, 2013, 10:51:10 PM »
Everytime some people say: "Tom said it...", believe me, it's better to ask him again and now you have a Forum and the thread right here to try to get his direct answer. It's always better than: "I remember he said..."

Well, I don't disagree with this. Tom does change his mind, though on some topics it's more likely than others. This not being one of those where I recall him ever saying, "No, not ever, over my dead body and burning remains of the BattleMaster server," it's not impossible that he would change his mind on it.

Until he does, however, his previous word does stand.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Eduardo Almighty

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 787
    • View Profile
Re: Company of the Black Sun
« Reply #29: March 04, 2013, 11:15:16 PM »
I didn't mention about him changing his mind, but without a specific quote on the specific subject is difficult to be 100% sure. I'm not trying to challenge your word, but I believe it would be very nice to have a confirmation from him.

It's like the "elf thing" in Sirion... it's always about someone trying to remember what he said about the subjetc.
Now with the Skovgaard Family... and it's gone.
Serpentis again!