Appointing a Duke

[Shizzle]

Hey guys. Today I ran into a problem appointing a Duke. Several people of my choice are not in the shortlist. Could someone explain what determines selection?

I can rule out:
H/P
Time in realm
Already holding an estate
Not present in the Duchy Capital
Not Present in the realm

Reappointing the previous Duke is not even an option...

Quick reply would be appreciated as to not undermine the war effort

[Shizzle]

A quick reply from a realm-mate (thanks Stefano) solved thing issue.

The solution was quite obvious, in retrospect. My person of choice (Kepler) held an estate in the city of Kepler. So if I would appoint him Duke of Keplerstan, it would allow him to appoint someone else Margrave of Keplerstan. This would lead to a bad chain of command, being:

Me - Kepler, Duke of Keplerstan - New Margrave - Kepler, Knight (and Duke) of Keplerstan.

Sorry for wasting screen ink, though maybe this thread can serve as a reference.

[Chenier]

A quick reply from a realm-mate (thanks Stefano) solved thing issue.

The solution was quite obvious, in retrospect. My person of choice (Kepler) held an estate in the city of Kepler. So if I would appoint him Duke of Keplerstan, it would allow him to appoint someone else Margrave of Keplerstan. This would lead to a bad chain of command, being:

Me - Kepler, Duke of Keplerstan - New Margrave - Kepler, Knight (and Duke) of Keplerstan.

Sorry for wasting screen ink, though maybe this thread can serve as a reference.

If you did that, he'd simply lose his estates and remain duke.

[Foundation]

I believe Shizzle meant Kepler wasn't a choice for dukedom because it would disrupt the hierarchy chain. Thus Kepler would have to abandon his estate first.

[Penchant]

If you did that, he'd simply lose his estates and remain duke.

That only happens for ruler, not other positions, AFAIK.

[Shizzle]

Yeah, things worked out after the estate was vacated.

[Charles]

Why not make appointments like the election of the ruler, any estate that does not fit is automatically abandoned? 
I realize that this could be abused to remove people from certain positions.  So send them a message to accept the appointment, that way there is less back and forth trying to make it work.  Make it like a duel challenge.

[egamma]

Why not make appointments like the election of the ruler, any estate that does not fit is automatically abandoned? 
I realize that this could be abused to remove people from certain positions.  So send them a message to accept the appointment, that way there is less back and forth trying to make it work.  Make it like a duel challenge.

I like it. why don't you make it a feature request? This could entirely replace the current "check a box to decline position".

[Penchant]

Why not make appointments like the election of the ruler, any estate that does not fit is automatically abandoned? 
I realize that this could be abused to remove people from certain positions.  So send them a message to accept the appointment, that way there is less back and forth trying to make it work.  Make it like a duel challenge.

If they accepted, its the same as having them abandon their estate, just without the loss of hours thus I am against it. Also, your why not makes no sense as elections are voluntary and thus they already do that, while appointments are not which is why they don't.

[Eldargard]

I would much rather see problematic promotions/elections dealt with in a way that does not involve the potentially promoted individual or candidate having to abandon their current positions before even being eligible. Having to abandon a position prior to appointment just feels wrong. Making players sift through the hierarchy and hierarchical rules because they can not seem to run for a position or make an appointment makes the game less accessible in my opinion.

Honestly, I am not fully informed on the restrictions in place or how the game handles them – especially regarding elections. From what I have experienced and heard, however, I think things could potentially be done in a more user friendly way. I may very well be misinformed here and would love to hear that these concerns are not valid.

Example:

For Appointments:
Just have list of characters eligible for the position with no concern to hierarchy,. Once the King or Duke makes an appointment, send a message informing the character of their new appointment with the option to accept or reject. If the King or Duke tries to assign someone to a position that causes a hierarchical conflict, have the game detail what existing positions they will lose by accepting the appointment.

For Elections:
Allow any eligible character chose to become a candidate for a particular position. If winning the election would cause a hierarchical conflict, have the game detail what existing positions they will lose if they win the election. If they chose to run anyways and win, they lose the existing conflicting positions and gain the newly won positions.

[Penchant]

For elections, that already happens.

[Eldargard]

If I am knight of estate and run for ruler, the game tells me that winning the election will cause me to lose my estate and asks me to confirm my decision to run? Awesome!

[Indirik]

No, it does not ask for confirmation. If you run and win, then you lose all anomalous positions immediately.

Experience has shown that people won't read the warnings, will automatically click the "Are you sure" box, and run anyway. Then when they win the election and lose the juicy lordship, they'll just bitch about losing it, and then try to game out all the contortions they would have to jump through to get it back. Then they'll bitch more. I'm not joking. It happens depressingly often.

[Penchant]

No, it does not ask for confirmation. If you run and win, then you lose all anomalous positions immediately.

Experience has shown that people won't read the warnings, will automatically click the "Are you sure" box, and run anyway. Then when they win the election and lose the juicy lordship, they'll just bitch about losing it, and then try to game out all the contortions they would have to jump through to get it back. Then they'll bitch more. I'm not joking. It happens depressingly often.

Confirmation should not be expected anyways. Two reasons, one, they should know Tom is not a fan of confirmations and two, if they actually want a position they should at least read the election page, in its entirety which states it. Confirmation seems dumb even if Tom was a fan of confirmations, as it seems rather obvious due to things like the announcements stating such, the election page, and the fact that it doesn't make sense to have a break in the chain of command.

[Eldargard]

In general I am a big fan of the no confirmation design goal. Good stuff. At the same time having something like that happen can seriously hurt player retention. I consider it more of a warning that anything. Simply making it clear to the player that, should his character win, he will lose POSITION_X. If they do not like it, then they can withdraw from the race (assuming that is possible).