Author Topic: Dwilight War Declarations  (Read 45312 times)

dustole

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
    • View Profile
Dwilight War Declarations
« Topic Start: March 06, 2013, 02:09:17 PM »
A couple if months ago the northern realms declared war on Aurvandil at the behest of Terran to give them penalties in their regions for so many realms being at war with them.  The northern realms even with sea travel have no real chance to march that far south.

It seemed to me that they simply were gaming the system.

Now they are all declaring war on Falkirk. They have no hope of doing anything meaningful. They likely cant even get troops from Darfix to Madina.

It seems gamey to declare a war you have no intention or capability to wage simply to cause negative game effects against another realm.
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

vonGenf

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #1: March 06, 2013, 02:19:21 PM »
It seems gamey to declare a war you have no intention or capability to wage simply to cause negative game effects against another realm.

Capability shouldn't really enter the equation. It's perfectly OK to send a declaration of war even if it's simply as a show of support to your allies. It can also entail commercial embargoes, ability to arrest priests of the other realm should they preach in your lands, etc.

Intention, now, I'll give you.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Solari

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 968
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #2: March 06, 2013, 02:21:44 PM »
I kind of remember Allison saying that a declaration of war was preferable to meaningful action at the time. Do I remember this wrong?

Stabbity

  • Marketing
  • Mighty Duke
  • *****
  • Posts: 1336
  • Formerly the Himoura Family. Currently ?????????
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #3: March 06, 2013, 02:25:12 PM »
Nonsense. Merely declaring war should always have consequence, even if no fighting takes place. Its a political statement, and holding a state of war has consquences for both sides. It expresses a desire to fight, and to seek the destruction of another, even if they can't realistically do so. A realm that provokes an continent into declari g war on it deserves to suffer the consquences and the fallout.
Life is a dance, it is only fitting that death sing the tune.

dustole

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #4: March 06, 2013, 02:28:49 PM »
Vellos admitted on the forums that his purpose behind getting the northern realms to declare war was so that the peasants of Aurvandils regions would revolt. 

That to me is gaming the system.
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

dustole

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #5: March 06, 2013, 02:30:56 PM »
I kind of remember Allison saying that a declaration of war was preferable to meaningful action at the time. Do I remember this wrong?

I don't recall that.  Allisons plan was to move nobles to D'hara and wage war from there while being funded from the north.  Also using priests at the same time.
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Stabbity

  • Marketing
  • Mighty Duke
  • *****
  • Posts: 1336
  • Formerly the Himoura Family. Currently ?????????
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #6: March 06, 2013, 02:33:26 PM »
That to me has real world connotations. Threatening war and or declaring it to foster revolt and weaken a common enemy is completely valid. Look at pre WWII and how much Hitler got from local revolutions, surrender and treaty by saber rattling.
Life is a dance, it is only fitting that death sing the tune.

dustole

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #7: March 06, 2013, 02:47:30 PM »
but the purpose behind it was to exploit game mechanics against a realm that the game won't let the northerners war.  The distance from realm penalties have been tweaked once and the north still can't march that far.  If the game won't let you fight someone but you still go ahead and declare war because of certain game mechanics then you are gaming the system. 

At the time the north declared war on Aurvandil they had no decent reason to do so.  At present time, yes they have reason to declare war, when they first did though there was not.  This is simply gaming the system.


Perhaps we should remove the penalties to region Morale/Loyalty for being at war. 
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Solari

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 968
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #8: March 06, 2013, 02:49:46 PM »
Vellos admitted on the forums that his purpose behind getting the northern realms to declare war was so that the peasants of Aurvandils regions would revolt. 

That to me is gaming the system.

We addressed this issue at the time, and there were several other factors at play, including comical tax rates, a lack of courtier/diplo work, and a bug that wasn't evident until Aurvandil complained loudly enough. Then it was fixed. Please don't rewrite history when you dredge things up.

NoblesseChevaleresque

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #9: March 06, 2013, 02:52:39 PM »
Declaring war to overcome TMP was against the game rules, and this is pretty much the same but in reverse, what happened to the ruling that you only declare war if you intend to fight it, and declaring war just to game the war coding was against the rules? Besides which peasant revolts and protests over war declarations seems to be entirely against the Serious Medieval Atmosphere anyway, not least because the peasants wouldn't even know realms like Iashalur exist when they're tens of thousands of miles away, much less care about their war declaration.

Really, if there were any depth to this coding, the peasants of Aurvandil would cease to care about the wars and cease to protest after a certain period of time of non action. Most of the realms at war have barely launched an attacked upon Aurvandil for the many months of their "war", why the peasants would still care about the state of war is beyond me, the nobles don't. As if the kingdom would put up with any form of continued peasant complaining anyway.

NoblesseChevaleresque

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #10: March 06, 2013, 02:54:47 PM »
We addressed this issue at the time, and there were several other factors at play, including comical tax rates, a lack of courtier/diplo work, and a bug that wasn't evident until Aurvandil complained loudly enough. Then it was fixed. Please don't rewrite history when you dredge things up.

Nonsense.

There was nothing wrong with our tax rates they were hardly "comical", as evidenced by the fact we were able to run them perfectly fine for more than a year before the war protests, in fact by Dustoles standards Aurvandil is running very low tax rates, by my old standards, the tax rates of Aurvandil were low.

At the time the north declared war on Aurvandil they had no decent reason to do so.  At present time, yes they have reason to declare war, when they first did though there was not.  This is simply gaming the system.

They hadn't so much as spoken to Mendicant beforehand, and haven't afterwards either. Poor gaming to just declare war to hope that war protests will beat us, whilst not even bothering to roleplay the war at all. I'm sure that if Aurvandil and Falkirk simply tried to exploit game coding to win wars we'd be up to our necks in complaints about abuses.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 02:59:18 PM by NoblesseChevaleresque »

Stabbity

  • Marketing
  • Mighty Duke
  • *****
  • Posts: 1336
  • Formerly the Himoura Family. Currently ?????????
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #11: March 06, 2013, 02:58:33 PM »
Declaring war to overcome TMP was against the game rules, and this is pretty much the same but in reverse, what happened to the ruling that you only declare war if you intend to fight it, and declaring war just to game the war coding was against the rules? Besides which peasant revolts and protests over war declarations seems to be entirely against the Serious Medieval Atmosphere anyway, not least because the peasants wouldn't even know realms like Iashalur exist when they're tens of thousands of miles away, much less care about their war declaration.

Really, if there were any depth to this coding, the peasants of Aurvandil would cease to care about the wars and cease to protest after a certain period of time of non action. Most of the realms at war have barely launched an attacked upon Aurvandil for the many months of their "war", why the peasants would still care about the state of war is beyond me, the nobles don't. As if the kingdom would put up with any form of continued peasant complaining anyway.

Wars aren't only fought on the battlefield. The peasants of Aurvandil don't care if the armies of the North haven't marched on them (and aren't aware that they can't feasibly do so because of a game mechanic) they care that your foreign policy is so dicked up that virtually the entire continent wants to destroy you, and they are between them, and you.

A war doesn't need to hit home to be protested.
Life is a dance, it is only fitting that death sing the tune.

NoblesseChevaleresque

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #12: March 06, 2013, 03:00:39 PM »
Wars aren't only fought on the battlefield. The peasants of Aurvandil don't care if the armies of the North haven't marched on them (and aren't aware that they can't feasibly do so because of a game mechanic) they care that your foreign policy is so dicked up that virtually the entire continent wants to destroy you, and they are between them, and you.

A war doesn't need to hit home to be protested.

This is the Medieval era.

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #13: March 06, 2013, 03:06:16 PM »
Declaring war to overcome TMP was against the game rules

No, you have misunderstood.

Declaring war to overcome TMP was utterly ineffective. TMP never cared if you had 50 declared wars or none. It was all about actual battles, looting, and takeovers.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vellos

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3736
  • Stodgy Old Man in Training
    • View Profile
Re: Dwilight War Declarations
« Reply #14: March 06, 2013, 03:15:12 PM »
Peasants obviously know about war declarations.

That means it isn't just an announcement– it has some public element. Town criers start yelling in the streets that XYZ realm has declared war on ABC.

Peasants don't know if XYZ is big or small or strong or weak– they just know that the town crier is yelling in their face.

Should threatening messages about war cause big penalties? No.
Should a mechanic clearly intended to have direct effects on peasants have effects? Yes.

Declaring war in solidarity to allies, especially when you are actively fighting an ally of the target of war, or when you are actively supporting realms doing said fighting, is an entirely reasonable proposition. Just because Iashalur, for example, is far away from Falkirk should not prohibit them from declaring war on Falkirk: same for Zuma and Morek.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner