Mendicant Cheating

[egamma]

Each moderation report has a place where both the reporters comments, and those of the moderators, are displayed. A separate forum for more...philosophical discussion would be fine.

People simply aren't reporting posts. I get a couple of moderator reports a week, and usually they are something stupid, or the person doing the reporting is being just as insulting as the reported person. I suppose I could warn both parties...

[Geronus]

The overwhelming majority of cases that get reported are either inconclusive or demonstrably not cheaters. This is one of the reasons that a policy of "lock first, ask questions later" hasn't been adopted. I have a theory that multis aren't any more prevalent than they've always been. The number of active players has fallen, and thus the share of the overall player base and the impact their actions have has grown significantly. If this theory is correct, then the correct question isn't "what more can be done to curtail multis" but "how do we increase the player count", or "what factors make for a truly enjoyable experience and how do we pursue them?"

Personally, I don't question that policy. I just want to know if there's anything we can do to get better and faster at investigating multis. Please don't take my mini-rant as criticism; I'm well aware of the all-volunteer nature of the Titan and Dev groups, I just find it frustrating that, having been vindicated in two separate instances about my suspicions of multi-cheaters, it took so long to actually nail them. It would be one thing if no one had any idea that this was going on and didn't see it coming. The problem is that in this case in particular multiple people expressed suspicion and/or lodged Titan complaints, and it still took a long time for the process to work itself out. If you ask me, that's a huge factor in how upset people are right now about the Aurvandil situation. You look at everyone who's complaining and these are people who have been raising questions and concerns about Aurvandil for, in some cases, years. I appreciate Tom's assertion that there's no proof that he was multi-cheating back when he was first investigated, but frankly I don't believe that he wasn't. After all, it's not like anything has changed between now and then; the behavior of that group of accounts has been nothing if not consistent, which is in part why they've been so suspicious for such a long time.

Basically, is there anything that more volunteers could do to help? Because if so I volunteer, right now. I get what you're saying about expanding the pool of players, but I don't think that more players makes multi-cheating any more OK, which seems to be what you're implying. The information advantages alone that you can get from running 14 accounts at once could be enough to decide entire wars regardless of how many other players are involved.

[^ban^]

We prefer to let fifty guilty men walk free than to wrongfully sentence one innocent.

[Phellan]

We prefer to let fifty guilty men walk free than to wrongfully sentence one innocent.

How do the families feel, 50 murders later? ^.^

[Baatarsaikhan]

How do the families feel, 50 murders later? ^.^

How does a nation feel knowing that their government killed an innocent man?

[Anaris]

How do the families feel, 50 murders later? ^.^

Yeah...that might be in any way relevant if multicheating was a crime commensurate to murder.

This is a free browser-based game. Nothing that could possibly happen in it could come anywhere close to murder. Or, really, pretty much any other felony.

[Phellan]

Yeah...that might be in any way relevant if multicheating was a crime commensurate to murder.

This is a free browser-based game. Nothing that could possibly happen in it could come anywhere close to murder. Or, really, pretty much any other felony.

I don't disagree its not comparable, and I wouldn't seriously make that comparison.   But the idea that one injustice somehow outweighs another is perhaps the point I was making.    Much like Chenier's over the top requests to destroy Aurvandil are ludicrous, so is pretending like serious cheating doesn't ruin the gaming experience for those effected and might seriously harm the game as well.

I know many players who have left because of situations like Mendicant.  And who refuse to come back due to the perceived lack of action against people who are on some level playing "unfairly" - even if we can prove its cheating as players.   It was extremely clear to those of us in Madina that something was wrong - yet nothing was done and YEARS of our gaming was ruined.   What god forsaken reason would anyone who invested months of time into building something would be satisfied with a "oh hey, we got him!" when what we built is gone?   You got him, that's great, but what he built through his cheating is still there.  And how what we build through fair game play is lost.   I quit when Madina fell because I was frustrated because it was apparent there was something seriously wrong in Aurvandil.  Just like many others have stated and some left as well. Given the niche genre of the game, it is important to keep those people who DO play.

How many players have a lessened opinion of the game, or have lost interest in playing due to things like this?

There is not just a matter of "making sure" - but also ensuring people continue to play the game.  If they see there is a problem and nothing gets done, many people - including new players - will leave and not come back.

[Indirik]

No one doubts that the effects of what happened are far-reaching, and damaging. That's why it sucks so much when someone abuses the game in such a way, and for such a long period of time. We do what we can to catch this stuff at every opportunity.

You have to understand that just because you *know*, and would swear on your life and your dearest grandmother's grave that there is cheating going on doesn't mean that you're right. We've had reports, multiple reports, from people who would sell their daughters into slavery if it wasn't true, that certain realms were run by coalitions of multis. And yet investigations show without a doubt that it's not true.

We can't go around locking accounts based on how fervently people swear that they're cheating. We must have proof.

[Anaris]

I've seen reports from people who are absolutely certain that I am also one of the other dev team members. The only evidence they have is that we tend to agree in a given realm, but because of that, they are convinced that we're multis.

[Geronus]

No one doubts that the effects of what happened are far-reaching, and damaging. That's why it sucks so much when someone abuses the game in such a way, and for such a long period of time. We do what we can to catch this stuff at every opportunity.

You have to understand that just because you *know*, and would swear on your life and your dearest grandmother's grave that there is cheating going on doesn't mean that you're right. We've had reports, multiple reports, from people who would sell their daughters into slavery if it wasn't true, that certain realms were run by coalitions of multis. And yet investigations show without a doubt that it's not true.

We can't go around locking accounts based on how fervently people swear that they're cheating. We must have proof.

Look, I don't want to come off as though I'm arguing in favor of indiscriminately locking accounts suspected of being multi-cheaters without evidence. What I want to know is, what can be done to improve the process of investigating suspected accounts as it stands right now?

As a disclaimer, I know nothing about how these investigations are conducted. I simply want to know how it could take so long to finally nail a guy that scores of players have been deeply suspicious of for years, who has been complained about and investigated repeatedly. So far, I have gathered from Anaris that it takes a long time to look for evidence, which obviously has to come out of the free time of the volunteer Devs and Titans. What I keep asking, and no one has yet answered, is can that burden be spread to a greater number of people? Can the processes and tools used to find that evidence be further improved?

Maybe it's really something that only Tom and the Devs can do because of the depth of technical knowledge required. Is that the case?

[^ban^]

Maybe it's really something that only Tom and the Devs can do because of the depth of technical knowledge required. Is that the case?

That is the case. Cheating reports go to the Titans -- the devs provide all relevant information and their conslusions based on that information, and the Titans then weigh that against their own conclusions formed by the information.

There is a lot of information, and when as much care is taken to hide activities as was taken in Aurvandil, even more is required.

[Indirik]

What I want to know is, what can be done to improve the process of investigating suspected accounts as it stands right now?

Gather evidence. Provide a list of accounts that you believe are involved. And not just "everyone in this realm is cheating", but an actual concrete list: "These four accounts are involved, and this is why". The "this is why" part is very important. Do they both always send messages one hour after turn change? Do they autopause and unpause at the same time? Do they send messages from each other's accounts? But it needs to be something solid, not just an "everyone *knows* they're cheating".

I simply want to know how it could take so long to finally nail a guy that scores of players have been deeply suspicious of for years, who has been complained about and investigated repeatedly.

A couple things:
1) Someone finally noticed the accounts involved and reported a specific list of the suspect accounts that allowed us to zero in on the affected accounts and assemble some really incriminating behavior.
2) When they were investigated before, they may not have actually been cheating.

So far, I have gathered from Anaris that it takes a long time to look for evidence, which obviously has to come out of the free time of the volunteer Devs and Titans. What I keep asking, and no one has yet answered, is can that burden be spread to a greater number of people?

Not really. The more people that know how the tools work, the more likely that people are going to find out, and learn how to get around them. They are also not easy to use, and require privileged access to the dev environment.

Can the processes and tools used to find that evidence be further improved?

Probably. But that takes time and coding effort, both of which are in limited supply.

[Tom]

It was extremely clear to those of us in Madina that something was wrong - yet nothing was done and YEARS of our gaming was ruined.

Two points.

One, "extremely clear to us" is not a level of evidence accepted anywhere in the civilized world. If you can not prove wrongdoing, then in dubio pro reo. Yes, I know it sucks. I've been wronged, not only in games, but also in real life, in ways like this. It really, really sucks. And yet, I wouldn't want to live in a society that does not subscribe to the principles I just outlined.

Two, really, years of playing were ruined? Did you have fun playing or not? Because that is the only measure of gain that matters. All wins and losses in-game are just means to that.

[pcw27]

We still don't have a specific criteria for what is considered evidence.

[Geronus]

Gather evidence. Provide a list of accounts that you believe are involved. And not just "everyone in this realm is cheating", but an actual concrete list: "These four accounts are involved, and this is why". The "this is why" part is very important. Do they both always send messages one hour after turn change? Do they autopause and unpause at the same time? Do they send messages from each other's accounts? But it needs to be something solid, not just an "everyone *knows* they're cheating".

Out of curiosity, did Mendicant's accounts display any of these "tells"?