Character Banned for OOC reasons

[BattleMaster Server]

Summary:	Character Banned for OOC reasons
Violation:	Rule 2 - Fair Play
World:	Atamara
Complainer:	Fernando Naidraug
About:	Trond Tollefsen

Full Complaint Text:

   A character in my realm(Heroot- Atamarra) was banned yesterday. The reason for the ban was not following orders and replying messages.


   The judge right after giving these reasons sent an OOC, explaining how the player was convicted for being part of the Saxon Clan. 

   The OOC message showed that the ban had more OOC reasons for happening than IC, also with the recent DNS problem, it is not possible to say if the user was actually ignoring orders (no further proof were presented that he were)


   After a brief OOC and PM discussion, I am presenting the case here.


   Bellow are the initial messages with the ban and OOC reasons.

   

      Noble banned!   (1 day, 7 hours ago)

      message to all nobles of Heorot

      Sir Thorstein Brynjulvson Galle, Law Father of Heorot, Knight of Makar has declared Aethelwulf Lurdigala, Count of Shiverwood an enemy of the realm and will issue a ban on him shortly. He has given the following reason:

      Due to their breach of our laws, particularily as pertains to feudal duties, non-cooperation and their refusal to explain their actions over a considerable amount of time, the Law Thing has voted to ban the Lurdigala family from our realm.

   

      Noble asked to leave!   (1 day, 7 hours ago)

      message to all nobles of Heorot

      Sir Thorstein Brynjulvson Galle, Law Father of Heorot, Knight of Makar has openly asked Siegfried Lurdigala, Count of Uforth to leave the realm within three days, or a ban will be spoken on him. He has given the following reason:

      Due to their breach of our laws, particularily as pertains to feudal duties, non-cooperation and their refusal to explain their actions over a considerable amount of time, the Law Thing has voted to ban the Lurdigala family from our realm.

   

      Out-of-Character from Thorstein Brynjulvson Galle   (1 day, 5 hours ago)

      Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)

      Regarding the ban on the Lurdigala family:


      It is often difficult to balance in context and out of context knowledge when dealing with characters in this game. The Lurdigala family has been hit with several bans and Game Master intervention for what is termed clanning in the so-called Saxon clan. The modus operandi is that of a swarm of locusts. They will gold hoard in the realms they use to gather gold, then transfer the gold to realms they do control. They do not cooperate with others and add little to their realms, and whathever realm ends up run by them inevitably gets destroyed. As we have seen with locked accounts in Heorot and BoM there are also issues of multiing involved with them, although there is no evidence as far as I know of Lurdigala being a multi.


      I have seen some of the actions this player has been punished for. For a few weeks my char Thorwald was member of Averoth, a very poor realm in Northern Dwilight with an absolutely massive army for its 4 poor regions, with 20 players that could move as one in the last couple of hours before the tick. The only way to actually have a fighting unit there was through family wealth. I was truly impressed with their military abilities. But it was very, very quiet. Eerily so. I decided to leave after the General did not give his usual orders, and his marshall stepped in. While there would be no stragglers when the General ordered a move, now roughly half of the army stayed behind. I paused my character a few days later.


      The Saxons, including Aethelwulf Lurdigala had a Magistrate ruling against them for their actions in Fontan:


      "A dev investigation has revealed evidence of a clan in the form of uncanny gold distribution patterns, a history of one group of players acting in unbroken unity across numerous realms and continents, that same group practicing IG clan-actions such as clan-only armies, collective migration/character creation, and possibly clan-restrictions on title access. Given that these practices constitute a violation of the Social Contract, namely, a commitment to valuing fair play more than victory or power, and to playing Battlemaster as you would a board game with friends, the Magistrates find that there is a clan active related to Aurvandil and Fontan which is substantively diminishing the game experience of Battlemaster for other players. As the specific complaint was raised in regards to players with characters in Aurvandil also having characters in Fontan, only those characters and players shall be directly punished. However, the Magistrates have also found this clan to be active, in varying degrees and in varying ways, historically, in Arcachon, Averoth, and Thulsoma. While all players are welcome to play Battlemaster with friends, we also expect all players to invest in a constructi

[Naidraug]

Oh boy, message too long to post here...

Just wanted to point that this happened now - I will continue with the messages on a new post:

Noble has left   (just in)
Trond Tollefsen has deleted the character Thorstein Brynjulvson.
His unit, the Thud! has been partly converted into a militia unit.
The ruler should appoint a new Law Father.

Noble has left   (just in)
Trond Tollefsen has deleted the character Thorild Brynjulvsdottir.
Her unit, the Slagmaer has been partly converted into a militia unit.
The ruler should appoint a new War Thane.

[Anaris]

A player being a member of a clan is not grounds for that player's characters being banned, especially from realms completely unrelated to the clan activity.

[Galle]

There were solid IC-grounds.

But I've found the whole episode so distasteful that I have left the game. Please remove my real name from this thread, as I am not a player of this game any more and has not permitted my name to be publicised in this way.

[Lefanis]

With the player involved having deleted all his characters, case closed I suppose.

[Naidraug]

Out-of-Character from Thorstein Brynjulvson Galle   (1 day, 6 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Regarding the ban on the Lurdigala family:

It is often difficult to balance in context and out of context knowledge when dealing with characters in this game. The Lurdigala family has been hit with several bans and Game Master intervention for what is termed clanning in the so-called Saxon clan. The modus operandi is that of a swarm of locusts. They will gold hoard in the realms they use to gather gold, then transfer the gold to realms they do control. They do not cooperate with others and add little to their realms, and whathever realm ends up run by them inevitably gets destroyed. As we have seen with locked accounts in Heorot and BoM there are also issues of multiing involved with them, although there is no evidence as far as I know of Lurdigala being a multi.

I have seen some of the actions this player has been punished for. For a few weeks my char Thorwald was member of Averoth, a very poor realm in Northern Dwilight with an absolutely massive army for its 4 poor regions, with 20 players that could move as one in the last couple of hours before the tick. The only way to actually have a fighting unit there was through family wealth. I was truly impressed with their military abilities. But it was very, very quiet. Eerily so. I decided to leave after the General did not give his usual orders, and his marshall stepped in. While there would be no stragglers when the General ordered a move, now roughly half of the army stayed behind. I paused my character a few days later.

The Saxons, including Aethelwulf Lurdigala had a Magistrate ruling against them for their actions in Fontan:

"A dev investigation has revealed evidence of a clan in the form of uncanny gold distribution patterns, a history of one group of players acting in unbroken unity across numerous realms and continents, that same group practicing IG clan-actions such as clan-only armies, collective migration/character creation, and possibly clan-restrictions on title access. Given that these practices constitute a violation of the Social Contract, namely, a commitment to valuing fair play more than victory or power, and to playing Battlemaster as you would a board game with friends, the Magistrates find that there is a clan active related to Aurvandil and Fontan which is substantively diminishing the game experience of Battlemaster for other players. As the specific complaint was raised in regards to players with characters in Aurvandil also having characters in Fontan, only those characters and players shall be directly punished. However, the Magistrates have also found this clan to be active, in varying degrees and in varying ways, historically, in Arcachon, Averoth, and Thulsoma. While all players are welcome to play Battlemaster with friends, we also expect all players to invest in a constructive gaming community: and that means not always playing with the same clan of friends. The Magistrates have thus elected to deport the characters of clan members from some realms in which they are active, especially Fontan. The dev team will handle the deportation, and the specific list of characters to be deported."

The "uncanny gold distribution patterns related, at least in Averorth and Thulsoma, to their hoarding of gold in other realms, which were transferred as family gold to characters under Saxon clan control. Which brings me to the Lurdigala family: They were rulers of Thulsoma, members of Averoth, deported from Fontan and from Bara'Khur by the GMs. They are, like the characters deleted by the GM in Heorot and BoM in the last few weeks, and about half of the current members of the BoM, recent additions to our lands who seem to have no interest in participating unless their own players are given control.

Now as for IC knowledge versus OOC knowledge, the Law Father can claim family knowledge of these issues to a limited degree, but given his obsessions with rules and protocol, he focused on that in his judgement. I hope this OOC briefing helps explain this issue, and also helps shed light on the strange influx of new players BoM had before the split.
Trond Tollefsen

Out-of-Character from Aethelwulf Lurdigala   (16 hours, 53 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Did I just get banned for baseless out of character accusations?
Annette Kirtan

Letter from Aethelwulf Lurdigala   (16 hours, 53 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Why exactly have I been banned?
Aethelwulf Lurdigala
Count of Shiverwood

Report from Thorild Brynjulvsdottir Galle   (16 hours, 43 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Copy of verdict of the Lawthing for Aethelwulf:

Due to their breach of our laws, particularily as pertains to feudal duties, non-cooperation and their refusal to explain their actions over a considerable amount of time, the Law Thing has voted to ban the Lurdigala family from our realm.
Lady Thorild Brynjulvsdottir Galle
War Thane of Heorot
Dame of Makar

Out-of-Character from Siegfried Lurdigala   (16 hours, 42 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Firstly, as a preface to what I am about to say in response to my banning - out of character accusations such as you have made against me are against the game rules. As is banning some one for OOC reasons, as is using the ban button to try and punish some ones OOC infractions. Not to mention it is downright dickish for you to ban me from the realm because you have a bee in your bonnet over some saxons, not to mention you use a bull!@#$ out of character excuse against me. I have marched on every campaign with the Barony since I arrived, I worked with the realm and contributed - look at my time in Heorot, when reminded I placed myself in the armies (As I forgot to do so due to the allegiance switch) I moved to Makar to recruit a unit when asked, I have built new recruitment centres in my regions as well and spoken in the realm. I have hardly been sitting around hoarding gold and not contributing. Quite the opposite.

I have already been dully investigated for accusations of cheating and was proven innocent by Tom himself, I still have the email he sent when I was locked years ago. I am not abusing the game nor am I cheating, and this has been proven by investigation. As I was also investigated during my time in Arcachon, Fontan and Thulsoma.

Trond, I'll be plain regardless of the consequences. What you just did was beyond !@#$ish, it has no legitimate basis in character or out of character and quite frankly you can go to hell for it.

Annette Kirtan

Letter from Aethelwulf Lurdigala   (16 hours, 40 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
There has not been an incident of non cooperation, I have fully cooperated when asked. No one asked me to explain what I have been doing, not once.

But if you want to know, these constant allegiance changes damages region control, so does changing the capital, so I've been repairing my region.

Aethelwulf Lurdigala
Count of Shiverwood

Out-of-Character from Thorild Brynjulvsdottir Galle   (16 hours, 27 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Lets be clear:

You were banned for not following orders or the laws of the realm.

This has happened at least three times in the past for you, so stop with the drama.

As for the "allegations" OOC, anyone can look up your family history and the magistrate rulings on the forum to check out every single thing I said.
Trond Tollefsen

Out-of-Character from Aethelwulf Lurdigala   (16 hours, 19 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Yeah that's great and all, but you really ought to check your facts. I haven't been given any orders

so spare me the bull!@#$.No one has even asked me what Aethelwulf is doing, which is self explanatory.

I've been banned before, what of it? That makes it perfectly fair to ban my other characters for no justifiably explainable reason? You need to learn to separate in character from out of character, then you need to learn that different characters are exactly that - different characters, not one in the same. You have no reason to ban me at all, all you've given is some waffle bollocks about saxons OOC. Spare me, I've heard it all before still doesn't justify banning me for your OOC prejudice.

You have no in character reason to have banned me. If you think there is abuses going on - then you should have reported me to the titans, I've contacted the titans in your stead however to prove that you're being an unreasonable arse for no reason other than it's own virtues. Rulers if you didn't know have an OOC ban, which if there is OOC abuses going on - you use that, not an IC ban, which should have been used.

I'll spare you the drama when you spare me the bull!@#$, did you really think I'd just put up with this?
Annette Kirtan

Out-of-Character from Maduin Eirikr   (16 hours, 15 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
If you were a part of the army, you would have received several days worth of orders by now. You don't show up in the roster, but I don't know if the banishment would do that.
Sean Shaffer

Out-of-Character from Thorstein Brynjulvson Galle   (15 hours, 45 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
It could actually be an interesting case to hear before the magistrates, if it was true that we had not sent any ic messages to the player. We could get an opinion on how far should realms be allowed to defend themselves against OOC threats IC.

Unfortunately for the Lurdigala family, there is a clear case of not following instructions or replying to them here. I found two messages sent by War Thane Thorild five days ago, and one two days ago in public, when Siegfried asked for extra gold despite not being in the army. One of the messages from five days ago explicitly mentions that the two chars are in breach of our laws. None of them got an answer nor a reaction.

Realms have some leeway in giving out bans, and this falls clearly within them. I am sorry if this was upsetting to you as a person, but you have to remember that Heorot as a realm is under an existential threat, and it makes little sense for us IC to turn a blind eye towards lack of response or cooperation at such a time.
Trond Tollefsen

Out-of-Character from Aethelwulf Lurdigala   (15 hours, 14 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Oh wow, a whole .... single letter from Thorstein five days ago that entirely justifies this ban through my lack of response (but by my compliance to what was requested right before the banning).

If you paid attention, two days ago Ender reminded me to place myself in the army, which I did for both Aethelful and Siegfried, and as their knights can confirm, I placed them in the armies as well. Which was then followed by me moving Siegfried to the capital, asking for gold and enlarging his unit as per orders, after having spent ages working on their regions which were suffering from the change of allegiance, and needed new recruitment centres because what they had was rubbish. Quite evidently I've not been active the past two weeks but that is no reason to "ban me" when it's clear I'm actually attempting to play along with the realm with what limited time I have.

Up until two days ago I was focussing on my regions, then I placed myself in armies and followed orders, a turn later I'm banned for not doing enough. Either you've not been paying attention, or thinking this through, or you're just looking for an excuse to ban some one who is not on top of his game right now.

You have either banned me for being a saxon, or you've banned me not being as active as you'd like, or you've banned me for no reason at all. Which is it? I've followed orders where I can, contributed to the realm where possible with what time I have, done what my characters were ordered to do where applicable, all of which can be proven and is self evident. Lets face it, you did ban me for the former two reasons and that's it.
Annette Kirtan

Out-of-Character from Ender Neill   (15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
I will say that in character, Ender told the Law Father that he'd written you and that you had not replied. I didn't check whether or not you'd actually complied since I had no letter, but said that the War Thane and Law Father should look into it and, if your characters were still found to be doing their own thing, the Law Father can deal with you as he saw fit.

If, as you say, your characters were added to the Horde and you were complying with Horde orders, then appeal in game to the Lawthing, Ender, or the Law Father. You can still handle it all in game if you were doing what you were supposed to and the ban says you weren't.

If you would like to take this to the magistrates, that is your right. I think we've exhausted this conversation in game/ooc at this point though.
R. Cooke

Out-of-Character from Tristan Stryfe   (15 hours, 27 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
This is a case for the magistrates.

They are the ones dealing with this situations on rules and the IR.

On the following orders thing, well it is hard to say it was simply inactivity or not following orders, we have a week of DNS problems that so that might have delayed the replies.

The orders have also mostly been: rally in Makar and we can see at least Siegfried there, and yesterday came the order to move to Brackhead.

As most cases on the magistrates say: you can´t ban someone just because the noble is inactive, you can for not following orders.

The "saxon clan"  may have done things wrong, but they are not banned from the game. They can still play, while they play by the rules without any problems.

So, I would advise on reverting the ban, take cases to Magistrates and see what happens.

Either way, on cases like this, it is also best to go to the question section and ask if in this situation you have grounds to ban someone.

And lets try and keep everything civil please.
Fernando Naidraug

Out-of-Character from Kerwin Perth   (14 hours, 10 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
You lost the high ground when you sent an OOC message justifying your ban on OOC reasons.

IC you ban anyone for anything, you should kept it at that. IC, you can ban someone for "not following" orders regardless of if its true or not, maybe your character just doesn't like the other character and made up a reason to ban them, that's perfectly fine.

You should never have addressed the matter OOC.
Chase Barney

 
Out-of-Character from Thorstein Brynjulvson Galle   (13 hours, 47 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (28 recipients)
Chase: That could have been said in private.

Everyone: The realm has this fantastic place to discuss these issues in detail. Its called the Law Thing.

And I will be happy to discuss this matter in private if anyone has any real questions to ask.
Trond Tollefsen

Out-of-Character from Tristan Stryfe   (13 hours, 20 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Aethelwulf Lurdigala, Ender Neill, Kerwin Perth, Maduin Eirikr, Thorstein Brynjulvson Galle
Ok sending in PM to everyone who was talking about this.

Trond, you should undo the ban here.

Have you not spoken OOC about the ban, it would be ok to send this to the Lawthing.

But you brought up OOC reasons for the ban, so we can/need to discuss this OOC as well.

Now I think we can solve this without dealing with the Magistrates, but from what I have seen on the cases there:

1-You can´t ban someone because it was part of the saxon clan;

2-You can't ban someone from being inactive

3-You can ban someone for lack of following orders, but you gotta prove this. One order missed is not reason enough for it and unless you can prove it that the nobles is active and ignoring orders you can't do that, because everyone has the right to play at its own pace.

4- You can't ban someone for OOC reasons, and that what this is.

Now if you believe that Kirtan is cheating and doing illegal things, you should gather your proof and present it to the titans and his account will be locked.



Fernando Naidraug

[Anaris]

You've left the game, and now you're asking that we not post your real name—which has been published in-game for some time for all to see—or the private messages explicitly relevant to the case?

[Indirik]

Whether the player affected has left the game or not doesn't really matter. There is still the possibility that the accused player has broken the rules. The issue of clanning, and its effect on the game is also an important one. If the Magistrates want to be the primary recourse for players to seek redress, then how they handle this case is very important.

[Anaris]

I may be misreading things, but it was my impression that it was the accused, not the alleged victim, who has left the game.

[Lefanis]

I may be misreading things, but it was my impression that it was the accused, not the alleged victim, who has left the game.

That's what I thought as well.

[Indirik]

Well, that's a somewhat different situation. Still, it would be interesting to see how the Magistrates handled it.

[Fury]

The accused has not left the game, only deleted the characters. As long as the account is there, the player is still part of the game. Then there is also the matter of reversing the ban should the accused be found guilty.

[Vellos]

Hell, even if he left the game, we should rule. The victim still deserves to have their complaint heard.

[Vellos]

Also, this is a great level of info reporting. That's the kind of info we need.

I have no questions at this time. Other Magistrates?

[Naidraug]

The accused has not left the game, only deleted the characters. As long as the account is there, the player is still part of the game. Then there is also the matter of reversing the ban should the accused be found guilty.

On reversing the ban, the realm is already taking care of this, we will appoint a new judge and revert it.


Edit: The ban on Aethelwulf went into effect, we will revert it as soon as the new judge is appointed.