Author Topic: Sorraine  (Read 23073 times)

Indirik

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Sorraine
« Topic Start: April 14, 2013, 01:55:42 AM »
So, since we're already halfway to dead, we might as well have a thread.

We finally have another ruler who isn't halfway down the road to autopause. Anyone think we can pull off a miraculous resurrection? Or will we suffer the most ignominious and embarassing death of all, and get wiped out by Ohnar West?
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Stabbity

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #1: April 14, 2013, 04:07:45 AM »
The latter.
Life is a dance, it is only fitting that death sing the tune.

Indirik

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #2: April 14, 2013, 04:11:57 AM »
We have Coralynth to save us!

At least we won't go the way of Papania.
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Velax

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #3: April 14, 2013, 08:38:26 AM »
Have you read the treaty you signed when joining the Empire? You get attacked, Arcaea helps you. It's one of the main benefits of being part of the Empire.

Shizzle

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #4: April 14, 2013, 01:49:43 PM »
Sorraine's downfall will take a while. Of course King Edan could make a change. I must say I won't be investing too much in this realm, though I don't intend to impede progress either.

Valast

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #5: April 17, 2013, 10:23:46 PM »
Just one more reminder that religion and politics tend to end like chocolate and water... one lumpy mess.

Barek (jerm)

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #6: April 17, 2013, 11:16:54 PM »
Just one more reminder that religion and politics tend to end like chocolate and water... one lumpy mess.

Mixing religion and politics worked more or less really well for the Vatican for more than a couple of centuries.
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Ender

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #7: April 17, 2013, 11:46:50 PM »
Mixing religion and politics worked more or less really well for the Vatican for more than a couple of centuries.

I'm sure it helped than there were a bunch of lords, nobles, and kings who followed their religion and, sometimes, cared to listen to the Vatican and took their faith seriously.

The conditions for Sartanism in the Far East seem less favorable, though I don't know your exact numbers.

Norrel

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #8: April 18, 2013, 08:42:16 AM »
Just one more reminder that religion and politics tend to end like chocolate and water... one lumpy mess.

Maybe in the 21st century. In the more liberal parts of Europe. Anywhere else or at any other time? Not so much.

But the thing is that BM IC culture is more similar to modern Europe than to anything resembling a medieval viewpoint, at least with regards to religion. You would have an easier time convincing Denmark to declare a jihad for Islam than making a BM state declare that it even has a state religion.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 08:45:33 AM by Norrel »
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Eldargard

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #9: April 18, 2013, 10:02:02 AM »
The problem with this is that the game is not really designed to model middle age religion. Religions in BM are local affairs that are easily started, ended and traded. Middle age Europe was united in christianity, mostly under a single church. Trading in, quitting or getting creative was suicidal. Unheardof. Punishable. The church of the time had the muscle to do it. Heck, the people had a will to see it done and did not need much, if any, urging on to take care of heretics.

This is why I so long to see Astrosim dominate Dwilight. Then we might have a change of seriously modeling what it was like to have have a monoreligious continent! It will never be the same though. I recall Anaris making a post about what he thought was needed to really model middle age religion. I agree with his post fully. I just wish I could find it now...

Norrel

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #10: April 18, 2013, 10:45:05 AM »
The problem with this is that the game is not really designed to model middle age religion. Religions in BM are local affairs that are easily started, ended and traded. Middle age Europe was united in christianity, mostly under a single church. Trading in, quitting or getting creative was suicidal. Unheardof. Punishable. The church of the time had the muscle to do it. Heck, the people had a will to see it done and did not need much, if any, urging on to take care of heretics.

This is why I so long to see Astrosim dominate Dwilight. Then we might have a change of seriously modeling what it was like to have have a monoreligious continent! It will never be the same though. I recall Anaris making a post about what he thought was needed to really model middle age religion. I agree with his post fully. I just wish I could find it now...

Yeah, obviously there's a game mechanics element to why there are no hugemongous religions. I still think there's a pretty large cultural element, too. You see people saying stuff like "religion doesn't mix with politics" or "religion is irrelevant" or "I believe in freedom of religion for everyone" everywhere, and pretending that that makes them super smart as opposed to just being bad RPers. Just because it's true and you believe it IRL doesn't mean your medieval ulta-conservative tyrant should believe it, too
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Eldargard

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #11: April 18, 2013, 12:04:55 PM »
No disagreements here!

Scarlett

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #12: April 18, 2013, 03:17:21 PM »
Quote
Just because it's true and you believe it IRL doesn't mean your medieval ulta-conservative tyrant should believe it, too

You know I love you, Norrel, but medieval tyrants believed it all the time. They would get away with it if they could. They just couldn't, because sending the Church of Sartan packing is like a two on the scale of things that register as weighty decisions, while sending the Catholic Church packing was another matter.

Henry II comes to mind for an early Medieval King - 'would someone rid me of this troublesome priest.' And he was that way for the same reason that BM monarchs are that way: he didn't want people meddling in his business. Even worse for BM, religion doesn't bring in support or gold to the extent that it did in the middle ages, so your medieval King could at least count on a number of benefits from doing the Pope's bidding.

The medieval church was enormously corrupt and everybody knew it, down to the peasants who didn't know anything. They accepted it as a less bad alternative to another dark age. Heresy was very common, as were deals made between local bishops and local lords to enrich both at the expense of the Church (or vice versa). Which is why Henry II got his ass handed to him when he went up against the Pope more often than not.

The real trouble with making this happen in BM is that it would have to happen very quickly. Galiard isn't really anti-religion; he's just enough of a pragmatist that he sees inviting an organized church into his midst as trading away a significant chunk of his power in return for what exactly? Partially it's just that the Sartanist church is always its own worst enemy, but partially it's that Galiard knows his subjects will all get tended to anyway because all the religions are so happy to have followers that they'll take the table scraps they can get.

Crusader Kings models this very well, where you had holdings that belonged to whatever the local religion was, and making friends with them meant you got their tax instead of the church - and enabled you to make one of your 'own' bishops an anti-pope. Conservative tyrants like incentives. I agree that BM religion is not an analogue for the catholic church and I don't know that I'd want to make it one, but you could empower religion a bit more by making the priest game a little bit more about being a prince-bishop  of some holding that non-priests can't have so that they can deliver the things medieval priests could deliver: gold, food, and even soldiers.

Norrel

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #13: April 18, 2013, 04:20:15 PM »
I don't doubt that that's true - there have been and always will be ruthless pragmatists. But, to my mind, they were more the exception than the rule. And I think there's a fair bit of difference between saying "this church sucks, I'm ditching it" and "religion and politics don't mix". As I understand it, medieval morality was basically 100% derived from faith, and so saying the above would be the medieval equivalent to saying "morality and politics don't mix". Do many modern politicians believe it? Probably. Would any of them say so openly? Hell no. Same goes for the medieval version.

 I think heresy's a good thing for BM, I think it'd cause more religious conflict - you see that IRL, in that Abrahamic religions tend to hold pretty harsh grudges against each other in spite of being very similar, but at the same time are basically apathetic to outside faiths.

And yeah, I can see that there are like, huge reasons not to allow for state religions or whatever. There is zero gain for a ruler in doing it. Giving a faith a significant foothold is basically just ceding your own power for no gain, especially since the default stance of "all religions are equal, like I give a !@#$" is not only tolerated but lauded. But again, I see that as being part of the problem, not an excuse for it. I think that player culture and game mechanics exist in a viciously reciprocal cycle.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but almost all major medieval conflicts were at least partly religious in nature. This was the era that spawned the Crusades, after all. If ever there was a time when religion and politics mixed, it would be then.

Also, I just think the game would be more interesting if characters actually put some more weight into their faith. I don't really see the point of having religions if 99% of the playerbase is just going to say "they're irrelevant and I'll destroy anyone who tries to make them relevant"
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 04:22:36 PM by Norrel »
“it was never wise for a ruler to eschew the trappings of power, for power itself flows in no small measure from such trappings.”
- George R.R. Martin ; Melisandre

Antonine

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Re: Sorraine
« Reply #14: April 18, 2013, 04:33:23 PM »
This, in a nutshell, is Sorraine's problem. It takes a medieval attitude to religion while none of its neighbours do. This means that it winds up constantly isolated and pissing people off because of its state religion. When all it's neighbours have different religions, or have internal peaceful coexistence of religions, it's impossible for Sorraine to exist without pissing off somebody.

The only way it can escape this is if Sartanism becomes more dominant in places like Arcaea and Cathay. Then it might actually get somewhere.