Author Topic: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends  (Read 14109 times)

Dishman

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #75: June 05, 2013, 11:38:07 PM »
Private letters, at least from Atanamir, prove that incorrect. Atanamir was open to any number of ways to have Eponllyn destroyed, including the secession of Al Arab, and direct war between Eponlly and Armmonia. There may not have been a clear "Let's team up and destrpoy Eponllyn", but the clear intent was there, for no other reason than Eponllyn didn't want to ally with Perdan and join the anti-Nivemus crusade. This was supported by Lance's pro-Westmoor/anti-Sirion haranguing of Eponllyn's council, where he said that if we didn't do it, then we'd be attacked ourselves. And lo and behold, soon after that, the plots against Eponllyn were revealed.

I still find it odd. If Eponllyn knew that not joining the Nivemus loot-fest would bring the ire of Perdan, then it seems like a horrible decision to turn down the loot-fest without prior knowledge that Armonia/Caligus would support them. Take away any part of the 3-way alliance against Perdan, and the other two are going to look like Nivemus before the armies were called back.

Not to mention Armonia's decision to give up gains in Eponllyn land to attack Perdan. I'm glad it went as it did, cause it's made for a most interesting war....but Armonia seemed to be given Eponllyn on a silver platter for joining one battle up north. If nothing else, at least Eponllyn had good reason for aggression. I think Armonia and Caligus will forever be seen as betrayers by the nobles of Perdan. It certainly has united the realm even more than the northern fun.
Eoric the Dim (Perdan), Enoch the Bright (Asylon), Emeric the Dark (Obsidian Islands)

Orobos, The Insatiable Snake (Sandalak)

Blue Star

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #76: June 05, 2013, 11:48:08 PM »
O it's got interesting again no long treks to war just have to go a region beyond our borders and thrash one of the betrayers.

Geez and I was sitting here hopping all the realms would gang up and fight Sirion again. (Wishful thinking I know)
I think like a sinner. Curse like a sailor. Smile like a saint. :)

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #77: June 06, 2013, 01:18:00 AM »
@Dishman,

The thing you have to realize is that Armmonia *was* ready to snuff Eponllyn. The plans were all set, and they were ready to pounce.

And then Atanamir backed out and snubbed Armmonia, telling them that Perdan was out of the plan, and Armmonia was left holding the bag. Autrey was furious with Perdan for that. And since she's a bit loopy anyway, she raged on Atanamir, and spilled the whole plot to both Eponllyn and Caligus. That cemented the entire set of three realms against Perdan.

There's no great love or friendship between Armmonia and Eponllyn, but they both despise Perdan.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Ketchum

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1657
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #78: June 06, 2013, 04:59:18 AM »
Hmm, southern realms seems more interesting and exciting from what I read here. I should have Brock come down south after Fontan downfall. But then Caligus was enemy with Fontan and Brock was captured by Caligus while he travelled across to the south ::)
Werewolf Games: Villager (6) Wolf (4) Seer (3); Lynched as Villager(1). Lost as Villager(1), Lost as Wolf(1) due to Parity. Hunted as Villager(1). Lynched as Seer(2).
Won as Villager(3). Won as Seer(1). Won as Wolf(3).
BM Characters: East Continent(Brock), Colonies(Ash), Dwilight(Gary)

Atanamir

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #79: June 06, 2013, 07:50:05 AM »
That's possible. I would hope so. But I don't think so.

It's not about you. So save your ink. I am not the paranoid here it seems so please keep your insults for yourself. ;)
I explicitly state no names because I am not interested in trading insults on the forum.
I am merely stating personal thoughts on possible future scenarios and I know many players across friendly and hostile realms who think same.

And about the medals it doesn't matter what technical reason is behind current situation.
They were once given to certain players and that counts for me.

Atanamir

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #80: June 06, 2013, 07:56:18 AM »
Private letters, at least from Atanamir, prove that incorrect. Atanamir was open to any number of ways to have Eponllyn destroyed, including the secession of Al Arab, and direct war between Eponlly and Armmonia. There may not have been a clear "Let's team up and destrpoy Eponllyn", but the clear intent was there, for no other reason than Eponllyn didn't want to ally with Perdan and join the anti-Nivemus crusade. This was supported by Lance's pro-Westmoor/anti-Sirion haranguing of Eponllyn's council, where he said that if we didn't do it, then we'd be attacked ourselves. And lo and behold, soon after that, the plots against Eponllyn were revealed.

Please refrain in OOC from saying anything that Atanamir has done or does is proven.
You have not full access to IC information, I am also not implying things in OOC about Garin.
A bit more respect please. If you need to slander please do it with other chars, not mine, thank you.

Atanamir

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #81: June 06, 2013, 09:08:17 AM »
And then Atanamir backed out and snubbed Armmonia, telling them that Perdan was out of the plan, and Armmonia was left holding the bag.

And because it is so wrong, I will answer at least to this IC part and solve it hopefully once for good:
It is not true, the plan, as you call it, was only Autrey's plan.
Of course, when Perdan didn't support it in the end, she had a reason to be angry.
But Atanamir's plan was not Autrey's plan.

I gladly though explain this once and for all:

Atanamir's plan:
Now, Lance's talks with Atanamir (et alieni) had nothing to with Armonia's attack plan on Eponllyn.
It was to create a friendly realm at the border to Perdan, on which Perdan could rely more than Eponllyn.
Eponllyn should have been limited to Semall area, since it was diplomatically unstable for Perdan, but not get destroyed.
Armonia would have been prevented to attack rest-Eponllyn as its troops would have been in the north.
Therefore there would been now two smaller realms besides Armonia and Armonia would have been safe.
Divide et impera, like with Ibladesh. Create two smaller realms, which can't attack the big one.

Autrey's plan:
Autrey's plan of becoming safe was the offensive one, the open attack. As simple as it is, and undestandable.
Perdan never agreed to this due to following facts:
a) Recreation of single realm again like Ibladesh.
b) Atanamir is against destroying realms in his mentality.
c) Perdan still felt closer to Eponllyn although it was allied with Armonia, since Armonia's alliance was designed to work only in the north.
Armonia's motives in the south were disliked by Perdan, therefore we did everything to delay this attack and find other solutions for the south. This eventually led to the plan with Lance (see above).

Concluding, as you see, they were geopolitically close situated but different motives.

Lance just mixed them when he joined Armonia instead of becoming an independent realm, that is the problem.
But at this point, Atanamir backed out from the secession plan, not from Autrey's plan, and messaged Caligus.
Because he never had agreed on Autrey's plan, at least not before the situation in north would be cleared, and that was far from being cleared. This way Eponllyn would have had enough time to rebuild and have a fair war in the south with the much stronger Armonia.
Because Atanamir (and Perdan in general) does not want realms to get destroyed.

Concluding, secession and the attack of Armonia, these are seperated issues, which Caligus and friends gladly though put in one shoe to get both southern realms as allies and unite them.
Good diplomatic move, but certainly far from the truth.
Dishman is right, Caligus and Armonia are viewed as backstabbers in Perdan therefore, but even more Caligus, since Caligus had nothing to do with all this. Caligus literally jumped the gun in the second when Autrey sent the partial letters of Atanamir to Siana. Literally in this second.
Armonia at least had a real reason to be angry.

Oh and a small add-on: Perdan's offer to Eponllyn for alliance was the initial plan to keep Armonia in the north and have Eponllyn be safe from Armonia due to the diplomatic barrier by Perdan being allied with both. Perdan clearly stated that this alliance had not as intention to have Eponllyn go north. We wouldn't have needed you anyway, as you saw. Siana denied this alliance though, and together with information by Lance that Siana was flirting with Sirion, that led to the Lance plan. You see, even though we knew Eponllyn was not absolutely to be trusted, we didn't want to have them killed by Armonia. Because we (not only Atanamir) don't believe that realms should get destroyed (except if they don't stop the war by themselves, e.g. Ibladesh).

Therefore, everyone, please work in here only with the information you get first hand IC from characters you speak of. And if you simply don't have access to all info, well then don't speak, lol. Otherwise you just spread the IC propaganda, and for my knowledge, this is an OOC area and we should be such honest players to be able to stick to the truth. Otherwise we should better leave this forum because this will only influence and possibly radicalize (as unfortunately often can be seen) players in the wrong way.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:25:07 AM by Atanamir »

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #82: June 06, 2013, 04:50:40 PM »
It's not about you. So save your ink. I am not the paranoid here it seems so please keep your insults for yourself. ;)
I never thought it was about me, personally. And I'm not here to trade insults. I'm just providing the southerner's viewpoint about what's going on. We have a few posts here about Perdan's perspective of things, now you have mine, too.

Quote
I explicitly state no names because I am not interested in trading insults on the forum.
True, you are not naming names. Yet we all know who you're talking about. And you keep talking about it, and making insinuations of OOC plots, and poor RP, and crappy playing, etc., etc.

If you don't want to talk about, then don't. And that includes snarky comments, and snippets about how you don't want to talk about other people's poor play. Just stop altogether.

I give my side of how things seem to be from our viewpoint in Eponllyn, and about things we have been told from Caligus and Armmonia. It doesn't matter whether they reflect your opinion of how things really went down in Perdan or not. This is the way that Eponllyn, and to some extent Caligus and Armmonia, see things. Do we see things different than Perdan sees things? Of course we do. And that's how wars start! Two people see thigns differently. If we all could see things the same way, there wouldn't be any wars. We'd all be perpetually happy, carefree, and bored.

Perdan may view Armmonia as backstabbers, but Armmonia feels the same way about Perdan. And Eponllyn is not happy because of the way that Perdan plotted against Eponllyn. Which it is quite obvious, and true. So Armmonia thinks Perdan tried to double cross them. And Eponllyn isn't happy because of the way Perdan plotted against us. So there you have two realms that are angry at Perdan. And both are angry enough to overcome their mutual dislike and distrust, in order to unite against a common enemy.

Along comes Caligus, who is probably bored and wants in on the war, and produces a legitimate casus belli to go to war with Perdan. It's no more or less legitimate that Perdan's completely fictional and fabricated reason to attack Nivemus. So why does Caligus' decision to enter the war suddenly turn into OOC accusations and poor RP?

Quote
Therefore, everyone, please work in here only with the information you get first hand IC from characters you speak of.
Which is exactly what my characters are doing IC. They work with the info they have.

Quote
And if you simply don't have access to all info, well then don't speak, lol.
The same goes for you, too. I can guarantee that you don't have all the information. So please stop making veiled accusations and snarky comments about OOG/OOC collusion and poor RP. You don't have enough information to make that determination. So just stop.

Quote
Otherwise you just spread the IC propaganda, and for my knowledge, this is an OOC area and we should be such honest players to be able to stick to the truth.
I'm *trying* to tell you the truth, the way the opposite side sees it. Please put aside your preconceived notions and at least try to look at things from south of the border. Just because we don't agree on the way things happened doesn't mean we're lying, or trying to spread IC propaganda on the forums.

We don't have to agree on the way things happened. But if you're going to come to the forums and insinuate that the people that are fighting against your realm are not playing fair, and are OOC-colluding against you, then you can expect for those people to object. Don't want to discuss it on the forums? Then stop bringing it up. You do not have the right to come here and make accusations, even thinly veiled pseudo-anonymous ones, and then tell other people they are not allowed to respond.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Hinamoto

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #83: June 06, 2013, 04:58:48 PM »
Its just 3 realms against 1... its not like half of the continent is attacking Perdan...   :o

Perhaps since nobody can bring the "we dont like pointy ears" excuse this time, it might sound like an OOC plot?

Fleugs

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 668
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #84: June 06, 2013, 04:59:26 PM »
Please, one of the final things Theuderik predicted before leaving Ibladesh was that Caligus would turn on Perdan. This was so written in the stars you can really not go and act surprised. Besides it is a smart move. Perdan, as I already said, is a realm so strong that you have to gangbang them into oblivion to make sure a weaker neighbour takes its place.

In addition, people seem to forget that many nobles from Eponllyn & Armonia still know eachother from the times in Ibladesh itself. Those ties have not entirely been cut yet, and I have the feeling this war will only strengthen them.
Ardet nec consumitur.

Menethil

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #85: June 06, 2013, 05:02:03 PM »
For reference.  Caligus wanted Atanamir to step down for all the reasons Indirik already brought up.  War happened because Atanamir's character was dishonest, stubborn in the eyes of Caligus and cared more about his position than anything else going on a massive insulting spree of Caligus and Dobromir when he was accused of the above deeds.  Honestly its not wonder this resulted in war.  The escalation was purely on Atanamirs character.

Caligus was never intending to go to war had Atanamir simply stepped down.  Both Autrey and Siana knew that beforehand.

There was no OOC plot.  Heck Autrey hated Dobromir but learned to respect him over time.  Anyways you cant start accusing OOC then get upset when people say what happened IC.  You even admit yourself to involvement I dont get why how you dont see your meddling as insulting to Caligus.

Atanamir

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #86: June 06, 2013, 06:09:31 PM »
Indirik, as always, you want to have last word. Please have it, that is so beyond my level. Be happy and think that you are right, amazing how someone get so offended when not even being talked about.
I will not even bother to respond to your flames, in which you have engulfed yourself.
I was not the one going to the forum, telling bs about other chars. So, go live in your world south of Perdan's border, but refrain to talk about the motivations of Atanamir which you can only know from second-hand - that I forbid unless you have aletter from Atanamir personally received.

Still, my initial comment goes to none of you - feel now a bit ashamed for going mad for nothing? Don't need to, just save your ink next time, not everything is about you (and I mean you as you, your realm and your realm's allies in order to clarify it this time).

Consider me the Tom Bombadil of EC if you like it.
I talk of things that may you do not simply understand - or know.

Oh and the truth...my favourite story: In BM everything what counts is that what is wriiten. Black on white. And that is the truth. Therefore, there is no way how one side sees things or not. It's all there, written, that's the truth, nothing else. Seeing some letters from Atanamir is not the truth...

Fleugs

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 668
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #87: June 06, 2013, 06:20:40 PM »
Oh and the truth...my favourite story: In BM everything what counts is that what is wriiten. Black on white. And that is the truth. Therefore, there is no way how one side sees things or not. It's all there, written, that's the truth, nothing else. Seeing some letters from Atanamir is not the truth...

Young padawan, you have much to learn. There is no truth in life, only opinions. Once you understand that Battlemaster will be easier to grasp.
Ardet nec consumitur.

Atanamir

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #88: June 06, 2013, 08:25:20 PM »
Young padawan, you have much to learn. There is no truth in life, only opinions. Once you understand that Battlemaster will be easier to grasp.

+1 but you forget I am the evil here, I rather be then Ugly Junior Sith Guy. ;)

Blue Star

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
Re: Perdan vs Caligus+Friends
« Reply #89: June 07, 2013, 01:44:40 AM »
Wait whats wrong with being evil..
I think like a sinner. Curse like a sailor. Smile like a saint. :)