Author Topic: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP  (Read 26437 times)

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OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Topic Start: April 29, 2013, 12:44:51 AM »
Summary:OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
Violation:Do not insult or harrass other players//Social Contract
World:Beluaterra
Complainer:Karel Scherpereel
About:Kyle Douglass

Full Complaint Text:
"Wtf is your problem, you wanky git? Bugging the !@#$ out of people in game isn't enough for you? Instead you feel the need to assault a person's opinion on /facebook/? Go !@#$ yourself, you self-entitled prick, and get a bloody life outside the internet."


Personal message from Kyle Douglas through Facebook.

Woelfy

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #1: April 29, 2013, 01:07:11 AM »
Holy jesus, i am beyond sick of your drama Karel. You instigate !@#$ with me and then whine when i tell you to knock it off, and then come up with this line of bull!@#$? The supposedly Poor RP? That was weeks ago. Not to mention you are the only player who whined about that incident as well...

You being a jerk on a different venue(fb) and then getting upset at retaliation is pathetic. I am genuinely disgusted.

Learn. To. Seperate.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 01:17:54 AM by Woelfy »

Indirik

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #2: April 29, 2013, 04:57:08 AM »
It is an interesting case. The Social Contract prohibits insults/abuse between players. It is not specific on where the abuse occurs. While it would be ridiculous to think that the Magistrates can police the entire world, if one player is harassing another about BattleMaster events/issues, regardless of the medium, do we have a responsibility to take action on that? Facebook does have its own controls, though, and that kind of interaction is trivially easy to block there.

... one of the Magistrates has been muted.
That was a mistake which has been corrected.
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Vellos

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #3: April 29, 2013, 08:43:51 AM »
Can we get a little context here?

I see a private Facebook message– I have no idea what it's stemming from or any idea what's going on here. Would the complainer like to elaborate?
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Shizzle

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #4: April 29, 2013, 09:09:34 AM »
I'll provide some context if I have time in the evening!

Woelfy

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #5: April 29, 2013, 10:38:37 AM »
Shizzle had a problem with one of my rp's on BT. It was brought up and then the matter dropped for several weeks.

I posted my opinion on the facebook BM community group, regarding the stagnation and boredom there, and Shizzle decided to attack my opinion. I retaliated, harshly, as I am sick of having anonymous emails and messages come to me in out-of-game venues. It is one reason I hardly even check here anymore.

Geronus

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #6: April 29, 2013, 04:38:02 PM »
From Facebook:

Quote
Kyle Douglass
As a player on Dwilight, I am simultaneously bored, disgusted, and beyond tired of dealing with childish and pathetic antics based solely on OOC drama. As such, !@#$ wasting time on a server that punishes proper SMA and encourages breaches of it's own rules. Beluaterra is the single greatest thing the game offers, and it is all due to it's lack of stagnation and OOC-IG blending. We need a full scale destructive invasion on DWI, at the very least.

Karel Scherpereel
Woah, QQ? Any concrete examples you want to see discussed?

Valentin Preceptor Hedman
Heh, dat's Dwilight for ya : D

Jim Gerdes
BELGIAN RAGE!!! I agree with you though, Beluaterra is pretty awesome (AT is starting to get interesting again too, as well as the big war on EC), and Dwilight is pretty terrible.

Dimitris Skiarxon
JAEGER SUCKS!

Dustin Olson
I like Dwilight. I am curious what this is about.

Dean Zammit
I have to completely Agree with Kyle here. Pretty much the reason I quit playing after all those years

Dean Zammit
Karel, If you lived in PeL since it was pretty much formed you'd know.

Karel Scherpereel
I've never been in PeL, but I've been around in Fissoa since before the foundation of Giask. Never heard much about OOC feuds, and always a lot of good things. In fact, should Skyn be killed against Alice I might get a new character there

Kyle Douglass
Karel Scherpereel: QQ? Ffs man, act like an adult not a whiny child. I've repeatedly tried to address the issue in game, and in the proper ooc channels. Nothing has been done, except by the rare few, to remedy the pestilence that has covered what was once the most promising island. Jim Gerdes I'm still in love with BT, and after having rejoined EC, I find it better than last time, but still a bit of a drone continent. Dimitris Skiarxon: you are just jealous ;) Dean Zammit: there is always Thal!

Dean Zammit
Can't deal with BM anymore, don't have the time  :(

Karel Scherpereel
Holy !@#$, what's with the defensive attitude all the time. Give it a rest. Or QQ

Dean Zammit
Yes, because flaming with "QQ" didn't deserve that response.

That's pretty much where the flaming stops, though Kyle does make one more offhand reference further down the thread to "OOC bull!@#$" on Dwilight.

We'll have to discuss whether this is something we'll rule on as not all the Magistrates agree that we should, but honestly I will say this: The number of OOC feuds that Kyle Douglass seems to get himself into along with their general level of venom does raise questions in my mind about whether or not we have a deeper problem here. For reference, here are some of the earlier episodes:

Previous case:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3863.0.html

And related:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3693.0.html





Lavigna

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #7: April 29, 2013, 04:52:13 PM »
I do agree that more than one complains have been brought here for Kyle but i will not bring a verdict over them using a complain that is and must be placed out of our hands.

This is not something a Magistrate should deal with , in fact i doubt this is something anyone in the game should bother with. Facebook is something adult people use, each of them for his personal reasons. We cannot judge people's behaviour or choice of words in there. We are not World Judges and Punishers here.

He brought his concerns over something that bothers him in the Bm group, he has every right to do so and he can choose any kind of words he wishes in there as well because there are no rules in that group that prevent him from doing it. The other part was rather provoking as well with the QQ thing. The whole post of Kyle was not directed to the person who filled the complain it got personal after he involved himself to it and this is something that must be dealt between adults.

I do however believe that Kyle should calm himself a bit concerning the game and check his game play as it seems it does raise concerns repeatedly but previous cases were solved already and should not re open based on this laughable (according to my opinion of course ) complain.

It would be wrong.
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Geronus

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #8: April 29, 2013, 05:23:43 PM »
This is not something a Magistrate should deal with , in fact i doubt this is something anyone in the game should bother with. Facebook is something adult people use, each of them for his personal reasons. We cannot judge people's behaviour or choice of words in there. We are not World Judges and Punishers here.

I'm not sure if I completely agree with you. What you're saying has merit, but I do have concerns about the prospect of one player harassing another one over Battlemaster-related things using mediums outside the game itself. Such behavior is clearly against the spirit of the Social Contract; should we recuse ourselves from any responsibility to try to stop such behavior simply because the harassment didn't happen within Battlemaster itself? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure I've decided yet. There are pros and cons either way. I certainly don't like the idea of knowing something bad is going on and sitting on my hands while it happens. On the other hand, this particular example seems like more of a one-off bit of petty spitefulness than a pattern of harassment, and its direct relevance to Battlemaster is limited at best.

Another question to consider in a case like this is, would these two people be connected at all without Battlemaster in the middle? Probably not. No Battlemaster, no conflict. Could that fact imply that we have some responsibility here?

Lavigna

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #9: April 29, 2013, 05:36:46 PM »
Another question to consider in a case like this is, would these two people be connected at all without Battlemaster in the middle? Probably not. No Battlemaster, no conflict. Could that fact imply that we have some responsibility here?

This is pretty correct.

However, if those people didn't use Facebook, or one of them didn't ..would we have a conflict?

What i mean by that is that Kyle started a completely ooc discussion about a generic thing concerning dwilight which is pretty much the main reason he ends up here continuously. He feels frustrated about it and went on to share it on facebook. He didn't make a personal attack to anyone, he stated in a pretty whiny way,yes ,his frustration about it and the reaction of another facebook user brought up this turn of events.

If it was a topic harassing the player i would totally judge it differently. It would seem like he was trying to use every BM related instrument in order to harass the player but this is not the case.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 05:44:51 PM by Lavigna »
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Deytheur

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #10: April 29, 2013, 05:43:59 PM »
As it was in the Battlemaster group and as (I think but I could be wrong) it is administered by the devs, I think it would be sensible to rule on such things to to try and prevent it happening in the future. I wouldn't like to see an escalation of people thinking that they can take IG violations/arguments to facebook just to avoid a magistrate case being reported.

Whether or not it was provoked I don't see any reason to send a message that aggressive and just downright rude. This is not the first time the accused has been accused of such things.  If there was a similar private message that started it then they are probably both as bad as each other.

As an outside observer on the public facebook post, if that was the instigator, it doesn't seem like Shizzle attacked an opinion. Sure he said 'QQ' showing not the most maturity from himself but the reply of 'Ffs man, act like an adult not a whiny child' still seems like a bit of an overreaction and if the private message was further reply to that then it is a big overreaction.

As an addendum, everyone knows that the Lurias are a hive of scum and villainy and Dwilight in general is quite boring in terms of wars so people find other ways to amuse themselves. Woelfy, you also have contributed to this state of 'OOC bull!@#$' as you put it so you can always just leave if it is bothering you this much. The manoeuvring and backstabbing is to be expected, that is partly what draws people in and what keeps me away.  :P

Lavigna

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #11: April 29, 2013, 05:57:38 PM »

Whether or not it was provoked I don't see any reason to send a message that aggressive and just downright rude. This is not the first time the accused has been accused of such things.  If there was a similar private message that started it then they are probably both as bad as each other.


I disagree.

If the facebook group is official it must have rules, just because it's BM group it doesn 't mean the same rules aplly in there as well.Same thing as the forum, the forum has rules, it is connected to the game , it has written rules and you can get punished for them.

This is way out of hand. We can't chase BM players to all social media and punish them for what they write in there, for the love of God!

If Kyle wants to be vulgar in his real life and respond in that way it is his problem and he will be judged as a person about it but it still has nothing to do with the game.

For his in game reactions that sometimes were similiar , cases were opened and the Magistrates decided .As much as this complain may bring second thoughts for those decisions ,it is not enough to change them and it is not enough to turn this into a real complain because it is not.

If you want to prevent such things from repeating themselves do write rules on the BM group and make it an official BM related page which will mean that the same rules that apply to the game and the forum , apply to that group as well.

Seriously no one would like it if i used discussions i ve seen on IRC , filling complains about all those who have been vulgar at times  on several discussions.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 06:22:26 PM by Lavigna »
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Shizzle

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #12: April 29, 2013, 06:26:51 PM »
Okay, context as promised.

I feel Thalmarkin has become a breeding ground for poor RP, poor manners and a generally poor OOC attitude for a small number of players, though mainly from the Guile family. My main issue was with stuff I can't consider BM-appropriate, such as a Grand Wizard shooting fireballs, moving an Ice Tower with telekinesis and sexual innuendo ("I'll give her a pearl necklace"). I sent an OOC message to Kyle on two occasions asking him to rein in. The first went without answer, the second with a reply very similar to the text in this thread's initial message. At the time I made a post asking about the policing of RP in BM, whether or not it exists and if this place is also intended for it. As the answer seemed to be no, I refrained from any further actions. I just ignored the Guile family altogether. Also because I figured I might be the only one annoyed by these roleplays, and I didn't consider it my place to spoil others' fun any further. It was only after Kyle started a rather lame argument on facebook with no real content that I reacted again, admittedly not in the best way. However, I didn't just reply with QQ, as I was genuinly interested in what his big problem was.

This was enough for Kyle to send me a personal message, I can only assume to harrass me in some way. We'll call it the CoD-mentality.

It was after his initial poor reactions (I no longer have them stored as it's over 30 days ago), the message on facebook as well as a discussion with another BM player on the poor behaviour of Kyle that I decided to put this out there.

Now, it's not my intention to see Kyle punished, because I agree that policing FB of all things is not the magistrates' job. As I no longer have the relevant OOC messages, I can't supply these either.

So what was my intention?

Firstly, to make him stop. I would expect exposing his messaging would do just that, immediately. I'm not looking to get caught in another of his OOC feuds.
Secondly, to provide documentation on the issue. For all I know (and now I do, from those other cases), Kyle has been harrassing other players. I can't say I am deeply traumatised by his attempt at insulting me, but others might have been. Perhaps recently joined players have already left because of him, something that can only be bad for BM as a whole.

I agree that this one case isn't worth much attention, but if this is a reoccuring issue, it might be. I believe BM should be played as friends around a table, which means a degree of respect is involved for each other, as well as the rules.

(EDIT: grammar, spelling)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 06:29:34 PM by Shizzle »

Woelfy

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #13: April 29, 2013, 06:34:16 PM »
This witch hunt is a joke.

Shizzle has a problem with a BT character of mine, and decides to act offended when an off-forum, OOC comment is made, that literally has nothing to do with him.

I have been subjected to continuous bull!@#$ the last RL year from a bevvy of players. I havent written up reports or whined to the magistrates excepting in situations that I feel simple words will not fix. My reactions may be harsh, but if a single other player had to take the slander and personal attacks that I have been subjected to: there would be 15 pages of complaints.

I refuse to censor myself when constantly assaulted out of game. Having issue in game is one thing, and I do my best to refrain from being vulgar...

But do not come to me on a social media site and assault me, then expect me to politely ask you to stop with puppy eyes and hearts.

If this kind of conversation had happened in real life, it would have ended in blood.


Lavigna

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Re: OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP
« Reply #14: April 29, 2013, 06:39:56 PM »
The problem remains that using something that could be considered a harass in order to enforce previous complains or dislikes against Kyle and his in game family is not justified.

I am sorry but it's not. First of all judging him with a complain that not only isn't our job but doesn't consist in player harassement , would be unfair towards him.When those other complains were made that had in game references , it was then that such decisions should ve been made.

You name his arguement as lame.Who are you to judge that? Reading from the comments, many even agree with him. His post on facebook is generic and doesn't target anyone , if you considered it lame and know he is short temepered and you don't like him ...do not comment on it and ignore it. Using it in order to prove he is harassing players (when as you say had real in game reasons to do it in the past and didn't) is what is lame here.

Nor i or any other Magistrate should decide on messages that no longer exist based on the word of a player and using a post on facebook as a stepping stone.

This isn't about me supporting Woelfy or the way he is playing or him as a person. I just refuse to punish someone just because "he did it in the past" when the Magistrates chose NOT to punish him back then, using a complain that doesn't belong here.

Next time, when you have such letters in the game, use them.And if they do include such content i will be the first Magistrate to vote for his punishment.
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