Author Topic: Offtopic  (Read 27182 times)

Vellos

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #15: April 30, 2013, 08:27:26 PM »
Per the rules, I have removed a few offtopic posts.

Kyle:
Please file a report against the players that are harassing you. I will move any evidence posted in this thread to that Magistrate case.

If you want to provide emails as evidence--and I think it's pretty clear that sending insults OOC to a personal email account is against the social contract--I can help you post those. Send me a PM if you like.



I think this has gotten to the point where Tom should look at the message logs of everyone in Swordfell. Some 14-day account locks may help cool things off. Yes, Kyle may be deserving of one of those locks.

This.

Because as best I can tell, Kyle is breaking the social contract pretty regularly.

BUT, it seems possible to me he's not alone: he just doesn't report.

He needs to report. Because guess what? The weird kid on the playground being taunted still hit a kid. That's still not okay. Growing up, I kinda was the kid getting taunted: you still don't have license to lash out. Yes, the taunters and goaders need to be punished too. Like I said in an earlier case relating to Kyle, "A plague on both your houses."

We have evidence here relating to one player. We can rule on that one player. If Tom wants to hit a larger group of players with a punishment, he can. Or if Kyle would like to open a case against a group of individuals, he can. And I'm happy to rule on those cases on the same standards.

But let's be clear: two wrongs don't make a right. It may be that Kyle was provoked. That matters literally not at all for his individual case. Now, it gives us a good idea that probably there's a bigger issue with a group of players we need to look into: so Kyle, name names. Provide e-mails: you can do it privately if you prefer.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Lavigna

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #16: May 01, 2013, 11:57:21 AM »
I suggest we drop this and move on.

So far i 've seen more people supporting Kyle for receiving his part of harass and the player who made the report stated himself he is not expecting or asking a punishment, which means he acts like adult versus adult.

Let's not make this a witch hunting.They are two grown ups and one of them acted hot headed.

I believe Kyle chose the worst of punishments by deleting his character (which was the char that actually ends up in trouble all the time).
And i do not mean that turns wrong into right but the worst  punishment that Magistrates  could suggest would be a 3 day lock.Well he locked him once and for all.
I am not saying that each player that gets accused by someone should delete his char and expect the case to be closed.But in this particular case Kyle deleted a char people didn't like in game.He was faithful to his game play and rp which was annoying for some.
When an in game hatred of this level occures among characters it's only a matter of time to end up ooc.Getting forced to delete a char because ppl don't like him to an ooc level is a harass itself.

What i mean is that obviously both sides are wrong, so far this case was an opportunity for all those that were "harassed continuously" in the past by this person to add their story here, i saw none.On the contrary i saw people stating that Kyle was harassed himself even if that doesn't justify him striking back.

What i suggest is to drop it and move on.But to also state that the next time we receive a case like this, involving the same bunch of people , we will punish hard( and personaly i won't even ask evidence).

Also i wish to use this case and try to explain exactly what ooc harass against a player means.Which are the boundaries here and at what length do we expand it's ruling.
Suck my socks! I kill for Darka! -KK-

Vellos

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #17: May 01, 2013, 04:42:38 PM »
Yeah, people are harassing each other because of IG events, let's drop it and move on.

No. This is the job of the Magistrates. And maybe if we lock Kyle he'll get the point that he should probably report it if he's being harassed because we take this stuff seriously. Because until he reports it, it's unsubstantiated rumor smearing other players.

We weren't able to rule on the last incident where Kyle complained because the Titans stepped in. We shouldn't just keep continually abdicating our role because it's a complicated situation.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Anaris

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #18: May 01, 2013, 04:43:36 PM »
No. This is the job of the Magistrates. And maybe if we lock Kyle he'll get the point that he should probably report it if he's being harassed because we take this stuff seriously. Because until he reports it, it's unsubstantiated rumor smearing other players.

I'd hardly say it's unsubstantiated when multiple people including a dev corroborate the reports.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vellos

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #19: May 01, 2013, 04:45:43 PM »
I'd hardly say it's unsubstantiated when multiple people including a dev corroborate the reports.

Like I said, unsubstantiated.

You could probably say, "I saw a pig fly" on this forum and find a couple people to defend your position.

Quotes of harassing messages, e-mails, whatever: report it. He did report one case earlier and we didn't rule, which, IMHO, was a big mistake. Because the Titan ruling didn't rule for one side or another, and didn't really address the case at hand. We should rule this time.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Anaris

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #20: May 01, 2013, 04:47:16 PM »
Like I said, unsubstantiated.

You could probably say, "I saw a pig fly" on this forum and find a couple people to defend your position.

Right. Because getting a former Titan and a current Dev to corroborate reports of harassment is totally the same thing as finding some random nutjobs to agree that a pig might have flown.

I take umbrage at your insinuations of my own untrustworthiness, Vellos.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Lavigna

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #21: May 01, 2013, 04:49:23 PM »
So you want to punish a person that his harass report wen un punished in order to learn what lesson? That when he is the complainer people drop the case while when he is the accused he receives punishment?

I really don't understand your logic.

We ask him to bring evidence but when he did we din't even punished properly. How fair.
Suck my socks! I kill for Darka! -KK-

Vellos

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #22: May 01, 2013, 05:00:10 PM »
So you want to punish a person that his harass report wen un punished in order to learn what lesson? That when he is the complainer people drop the case while when he is the accused he receives punishment?

I really don't understand your logic.

We ask him to bring evidence but when he did we din't even punished properly. How fair.

I was opposed to the early involvement of the Titans as well. No, it's not fair the way things have worked out. I expect there's probably a solid half dozen harassment cases or so that need to be brought up and worked out. But past errors should not be used to prevent the Magistrates from doing what they should do now: which is rule on the darn case.

Right. Because getting a former Titan and a current Dev to corroborate reports of harassment is totally the same thing as finding some random nutjobs to agree that a pig might have flown.

I take umbrage at your insinuations of my own untrustworthiness, Vellos.

No Tim, I don't think you're lying or untrustworthy. I think that the whole point of the Magistrates vs. the Titans is to actually have things out in a fairly public and transparent fashion that players can rely on to produce reasonable, understandable results. If every time we get a harassment case we apply special standards and have different, atypical process where we drop some, use Titans for others, etc, etc, that defeats the whole point. We'd be better off just having harassment cases go straight to the Titans.

We need to rule on the evidence we have. If it is incomplete, that is the fault of the two parties involved. If Kyle has been the subject of far worse, then it should be a simple matter for him to open a case, and maybe this time the Titans won't shut down the process.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #23: May 01, 2013, 06:57:48 PM »
I suggest we drop this and move on.

So far i've seen more people supporting Kyle for receiving his part of harass and the player who made the report stated himself he is not expecting or asking a punishment, which means he acts like adult versus adult.

From what I've seen this isn't the case, it is rather equal regarding who supports him and who doesn't, the difference being that the people who do support Kyle haven't brought up any actual evidence, instead serving as "character" witnesses. If there's one thing we should know about humans, its that character witnesses are inherently biased. It's why all the time in the media if someone commits a crime people close to said person many times say "I never would have expected him/her to do something like this."

In that regard, we could have the entire forum for all I care speaking up for Kyle's character. That isn't factual hard evidence, that's an opinion. A transcript of personal and public messages is hard evidence. Use that for your judgement, not what people claim to be true as their stated opinion.

Anaris

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #24: May 01, 2013, 07:17:07 PM »
I should note that while I have spoken up on Kyle's behalf, I am entirely neutral on the subject of whether any punishment is warranted in this case.

I just think that if Kyle is punished, those who goaded him continually for the joy of seeing him lash out should be punished more severely.

And yes, I recognize that this means that Kyle must report them and provide evidence himself.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Lavigna

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #25: May 01, 2013, 09:57:51 PM »
I was opposed to the early involvement of the Titans as well. No, it's not fair the way things have worked out. I expect there's probably a solid half dozen harassment cases or so that need to be brought up and worked out. But past errors should not be used to prevent the Magistrates from doing what they should do now: which is rule on the darn case.

Past errors? I am sorry but you have a wrong idea of what Magistrates do. First they 're not punishers.It does not mean that we have to punish in order to consider the closure of the case succesfull.We must be impartial and act according to the rules.The rules here are questionable.

And consider decisions of Titans and Magistrates as past errors just because you consider them wrong, is also wrong.They are past judgements of those in charge to support the rules.Our decisions become rules.

It is of course common sense to know that react to harass with harass is wrong.But how does it feel when someone brings evidence people consider his report as not worthy of actual attention.

I remind you there is a case when he is the complainer.

There is previous evidence and it's there and it was considered weak and one of his RE-actions gets enough attention to turn him from victim to the aggresor.

You are right, i was the first to say that without actual proof you can't support your opinion. But i was an eye witness and to me that is much more than rules.

I am asking to be excluded from the voting.I am obviously biased because i know a part of a truth by being an eye witness which at the same time of  course enforces my opinion and my opinion is "let this go " but the it go with some official and strong warning  on the matter.

If we believe that we ve done wrong in the past by one of our decision maybe we should fix them and make sure it becomes golden rule.Wrong decisions of either Magistrates or Titans are not past errors, they are bad example by those who actually enforce the rules.
Suck my socks! I kill for Darka! -KK-

BarticaBoat

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #26: May 01, 2013, 10:01:59 PM »
As far as this case goes, the most relevant extenuating factors here would be evidence of an apology or some sense of remorse on the part of Kyle himself. Since those are notably lacking, I have a hard time feeling much sympathy for him at the moment. ... particularly since Shizzle has gone out of his way to extend an olive branch here.

Having spoken with Woelfy, I was aware of some of the OOC harassment he was receiving but I wasn't aware of the extent.

Woelfy is a very fair guy, but he's definitely not a live and let live. I fully agree with the way he has tried to defend himself, and tbh to see Shizzle suddenly apologetic the moment the teacher/professor/parents are involved reflects who he is. Woelfy isn't lashing out because he's a bad guy, it's because he's being pushed to the edge and right now I feel like some of the magistrates need to look less at the letter of the law and more at the spirit and the fact that this is supposed to be a game amongst friends.

To me, Woelfy is playing a game with friends. When people are being irritating he's trying to work it out instead of calling in mom and dad to fix everything. The people on the other side who are continually filing reports about him are not playing like friends, they're playing like socially deficient internet trolls who are trying to use the authority figures in the game to further their aims.

Dwilight has lost a very good, dynamic character and player because some people didn't like either. This sounds like the Dwilight I know so far, and I hate that that's true. There are deep reasons why Dwilight is growing stagnant, this is simply a manifestation of it.

Lavigna

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #27: May 01, 2013, 10:10:59 PM »
Having spoken with Woelfy, I was aware of some of the OOC harassment he was receiving but I wasn't aware of the extent.

Woelfy is a very fair guy, but he's definitely not a live and let live. I fully agree with the way he has tried to defend himself, and tbh to see Shizzle suddenly apologetic the moment the teacher/professor/parents are involved reflects who he is. Woelfy isn't lashing out because he's a bad guy, it's because he's being pushed to the edge and right now I feel like some of the magistrates need to look less at the letter of the law and more at the spirit and the fact that this is supposed to be a game amongst friends.

To me, Woelfy is playing a game with friends. When people are being irritating he's trying to work it out instead of calling in mom and dad to fix everything. The people on the other side who are continually filing reports about him are not playing like friends, they're playing like socially deficient internet trolls who are trying to use the authority figures in the game to further their aims.

Dwilight has lost a very good, dynamic character and player because some people didn't like either. This sounds like the Dwilight I know so far, and I hate that that's true. There are deep reasons why Dwilight is growing stagnant, this is simply a manifestation of it.

+1
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Anaris

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #28: May 01, 2013, 10:23:22 PM »
I feel like some of the magistrates need to look less at the letter of the law and more at the spirit and the fact that this is supposed to be a game amongst friends.

To me, Woelfy is playing a game with friends. When people are being irritating he's trying to work it out instead of calling in mom and dad to fix everything. The people on the other side who are continually filing reports about him are not playing like friends, they're playing like socially deficient internet trolls who are trying to use the authority figures in the game to further their aims.

This, I think, is the most important part of this post to take note of, and it has actually made me change my mind on the question of whether any punishment should be levied upon Woelfy/Kyle.

If the Magistrates treat the law like a straitjacket, being bound by the feeling that they must punish any perceived violation, then they are abdicating their responsibility to provide justice, and not merely punishment.

As has already been pointed out, Kyle has voluntarily taken the second-worst action that can ever be used as a punishment in BattleMaster: he has deleted his character. The only punishment we have that is worse than that is a permanent account lock. So aside from telling him, "Please don't do that again," what, exactly, do you think would be an appropriate punishment for Kyle at this point?

Justice requires more than an iron grasp of the law. It requires compassion, and the ability to see when someone is, despite what their immediate actions may be, a victim, for whom a punishment for their actions will simply serve to alienate them from the community and cause further stress—in other words, to amplify significantly the effects that those harassing him have already been having on him.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Lavigna

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Re: Offtopic
« Reply #29: May 01, 2013, 10:38:21 PM »
It is in every Judge's , or Magistrates job to act with his own logic when a case doesn't belong to black or white,because rules are black and white.

When the case itself is questionable, the rules are loose at vital points concerning the case,there is lack of evidence by both sides in order to enforce their statements, then we are called to think out of the box as well.

This how law works and the product of the law is law itself.
Suck my socks! I kill for Darka! -KK-