Unnecessary Racist Slur

[D'Espana]

Were I a Jewish, could I ask for the end of all wars started for the purpose of cleansing a realm only because of the people that inhabit it? Were I a woman, could I ask for the retirement of the "rape" option, since it evokes woman subjugation and has negative connotations ten times stronger than slant-eye? Were I poor, could I ask that commoners to be treated as nobles, as I feel offended by that clasist disgregation? Had I lost my parents in a war, could I ask for the banning of all wars, as they bring memories that I'd rather not awake?

Everything in the Middle Ages will make someone, sooner than later, feel offended if they have just a pinch of humanity and half a soul. But that doesn't mean either that I have to RP a charity nun only because there are all sort of cultures in a game. That is my point, guys: in a game, a damn RP game, you leave everything you think as a sensible person behind and take the place of your character for all IC interactions, be them friendly or openly hostile. Perhaps I'm so open about it because I've always loved science fiction and fantasy, and you need to forget about what it's right and wrong to be able to enjoy many of those. I don't know.

The alternative to allowing everything is to turn BM into a Barbie's doll house, as simple as that. Some random guy somewhere random over the world will always find something offensive about this game. I'd rather we'd tell people to set their mind closure aside than having players punished for an incredibly mild remark in any RL sensitive issue. We're playing, people. Leave your police officer coat at home.

[Velax]

So there's no line? For you it's either all or nothing? Everything is allowed or nothing is? We, as a BM community, can't decide when something goes too far?

[Lavigna]

You simply refuse to see the point.

This is not about punishing one guy , it is a good opportunity to discuss about this though because just letting it be it may allow it to escalate in the future, i know english is not my native language but for the love of God do you not understand what i m saying?

I personally see the Magistrates NOT as punishers but as an opportunity to set some boundaries for the players in order to not have them hurt each other.
I would want to be responsible for any player feeling insulted and offended for his race, nation, color, eyes or whatever.Infact it is exactly the same as harassing him without knowing it.

If you find it non important well good for you and good for sharing your opinion, just don't mock others for feeling differently, it is a game, it is an interactive one thus you will have to respect the way some players feel because you don't play alone.

[Miriam Ics]

Here's my question: why must the in-game race have both slanted-eyes and be yellow skinned? Why not have red-skinned natives with slanted eyes, and yellow skinned with big noses, etc? Why must an SMA continent have natives whose features match those of real-world groups?

Let's show some creativity, people! Mix and match!

+100
This is the point. You can use whatever you want, but don't need to make it look like real life or make people feel not comfortable with it.
As for rape and killing, we had a long discussion about this before and what we could agreed (more less) at the end of it is that what is bad is to picture the rape and killing and not the act itself.

[Dishman]

This is not about punishing one guy , it is a good opportunity to discuss about this though because just letting it be it may allow it to escalate in the future, i know english is not my native language but for the love of God do you not understand what i m saying?

For something like this, if you are more interested in setting 'precedent' and 'what are our morales as a community' rather than care about the actual case (which deals with one person and his intent), then you are going to lose either way.

On the one hand, you can say "this has crossed the line" (like you have already stated), and open the door to any references to race as off-limits (or, that you can reference race but it must be in a good light). This will offend and alienate pretty much every nationality equally.

On the other hand, you can say "this hasn't reached the line", and open the discussion of what is the line when referencing race. This opens the door to endorsing comments such as these and/or escalating things.

The question isn't 'is this racist'. The question is 'did Vladimir stop playing as if with friends', figuring in that part of the group of friends IS asian. So far, the only asianic friend who posted said it was distasteful but not worth reprimand. Others disagree. Now magistrate without letting buzzwords and political-correctness turn this into something far bigger than it really is.

This is the point. You can use whatever you want, but don't need to make it look like real life or make people feel not comfortable with it.

Two problems with this. A: It's a low fantasy setting, so no purple/green. This means we are stuck using real pallettes, which are pretty much used somewhere in the world. B: If we do mix-and-match racism, then how far until someone makes it clear that they aren't referencing the fake race...but have in fact been referencing a real race for quite some time.

[Lavigna]

For something like this, if you are more interested in setting 'precedent' and 'what are our morales as a community' rather than care about the actual case (which deals with one person and his intent), then you are going to lose either way.

On the one hand, you can say "this has crossed the line" (like you have already stated), and open the door to any references to race as off-limits (or, that you can reference race but it must be in a good light). This will offend and alienate pretty much every nationality equally.

On the other hand, you can say "this hasn't reached the line", and open the discussion of what is the line when referencing race. This opens the door to endorsing comments such as these and/or escalating things.

The question isn't 'is this racist'. The question is 'did Vladimir stop playing as if with friends', figuring in that part of the group of friends IS asian. So far, the only asianic friend who posted said it was distasteful but not worth reprimand. Others disagree. Now magistrate without letting buzzwords and political-correctness turn this into something far bigger than it really is.
Two problems with this. A: It's a low fantasy setting, so no purple/green. This means we are stuck using real pallettes, which are pretty much used somewhere in the world. B: If we do mix-and-match racism, then how far until someone makes it clear that they aren't referencing the fake race...but have in fact been referencing a real race for quite some time.

For me it has crossed the line and i already said it , so as far as it goes for my vote it is pretty obvious?

But for me it's not just one vote.You vote for one case but you have to know that this vote will actually have a value for the whole community when a different case comes up. So what is your point exactly?
Players actually use verdicts from other cases to endorce their own .Of course and it is important. For me this is the line.So for me it's not just this guy,it is the line for the whole community.

Also what does it mean i am going to lose? I am not getting paid to support a case for any part. It is not a matter of winning or losing a case, it is a matter of trying to solve the case for the best of the parts involved and later on for the community itself, i am not playing the lawyer here ...

I already saw cases taken lightly and then another one judged completely different only because the offense was slightly harsher.
Should we say it's ok because not many Asians came to complain and then when someone comes up with something worse judge it individually?

Racism is racism, there is no "light racism" and "harsh racism". It's racism. This case is an opportunity to say if we re ok with it or not and of course punish or not.I  don't understand your point really.

Also what does it mean we should use real palletes? Do you really have to use a pallete AT ALL?
The title of this case says it all. It was unnecessary ... there was no need, it added nothing , it wasn't a roleplay that using an asian -like  was essential, it was a totally uncalled racist comment. I am not saying that if it was a roleplay it would make any difference for me at least , but it was really really unnecessary.

[Dishman]

For me it has crossed the line and i already said it , so as far as it goes for my vote it is pretty obvious?

But for me it's not just one vote.You vote for one case but you have to know that this vote will actually have a value for the whole community when a different case comes up. So what is your point exactly?
Players actually use verdicts from other cases to endorce their own .Of course and it is important. For me this is the line.So for me it's not just this guy,it is the line for the whole community.

I know that this will be used for future cases, but that isn't the reason for this case. If you place more importance on "what this case means for the future" you lose sight of "what this case means to the accused/accuser".

Also what does it mean i am going to lose? I am not getting paid to support a case for any part. It is not a matter of winning or losing a case, it is a matter of trying to solve the case for the best of the parts involved and later on for the community itself, i am not playing the lawyer here ...

The intent of the magistrates is to make sure everyone plays nice with each other and to help facilitate a good time. Over-sensitive rules, allowing abuses, or some combination of the two aren't going to do that. When you take the case out of context, and look at it as a policy decision rather than a disagreement between friends, then you aren't playing lawyer...you're playing legislator.

Racism is racism, there is no "light racism" and "harsh racism". It's racism. This case is an opportunity to say if we re ok with it or not and of course punish or not.I  don't understand your point really.

I would disagree. There is a chasm of a difference between "we should genocide x people" and "I think x people are lazy". The Social Contract covers insults/harassment, and insults/harassment vary in degree. Racism is just another vein of insult/harassment of one player to another. For insults/harassment cases I've always thought accuser's intent, violantion's degree, and the offended's feelings mattered.

Also what does it mean we should use real palletes? Do you really have to use a pallete AT ALL?
The title of this case says it all. It was unnecessary ... there was no need, it added nothing , it wasn't a roleplay that using an asian -like  was essential, it was a totally uncalled racist comment. I am not saying that if it was a roleplay it would make any difference for me at least , but it was really really unnecessary.

When I talk about 'real palletes', I'm referring to the skin colors and facial features of real-world races (which most combinations are covered by some ethnic group). I guess we can all just omit racial features of IG people, but that kills immersion and RP freedom.

I guess, in general what I'm trying to say is that we can't make blanket decisions for 'racism', because it's never as simple as "that's racist!". It's a hot-button issue, that varies in definition, and can be largely interpretive. Vladimir's comments being unnecessary or not aren't really the issue. The issue is were Vladimir's make comments designed to insult/harass other players.

[Vita`]

I don't see the great roleplay that is gained by virtue of the comment, when lazy sufficed, compared to the racism towards a segment of the international playerbase. What has benefited ICly from these words to the impression the game leaves upon someone of east asian descent?

[Indirik]

Personally, I don't believe that a comment has to be intentionally insulting or harassing in order for it to be insulting or harassing. While the intent to insult or harass may make something worse, the absence of intent does not inherently make it acceptable.

[Anaris]

I don't see the great roleplay that is gained by virtue of the comment, when lazy sufficed, compared to the racism towards a segment of the international playerbase. What has benefited ICly from these words to the impression the game leaves upon someone of east asian descent?

This is pretty much my take.

This was gratuitous racism. There is no place for that in BattleMaster. Talking about fears of "allowing more censorship" is just making excuses for people to be offensive.

Basic rule of operations: Do not be unnecessarily offensive. Do not be unnecessarily easily offended.

[Lavigna]

I know that this will be used for future cases, but that isn't the reason for this case. If you place more importance on "what this case means for the future" you lose sight of "what this case means to the accused/accuser".

The intent of the magistrates is to make sure everyone plays nice with each other and to help facilitate a good time. Over-sensitive rules, allowing abuses, or some combination of the two aren't going to do that. When you take the case out of context, and look at it as a policy decision rather than a disagreement between friends, then you aren't playing lawyer...you're playing legislator.

I would disagree. There is a chasm of a difference between "we should genocide x people" and "I think x people are lazy". The Social Contract covers insults/harassment, and insults/harassment vary in degree. Racism is just another vein of insult/harassment of one player to another. For insults/harassment cases I've always thought accuser's intent, violantion's degree, and the offended's feelings mattered.
When I talk about 'real palletes', I'm referring to the skin colors and facial features of real-world races (which most combinations are covered by some ethnic group). I guess we can all just omit racial features of IG people, but that kills immersion and RP freedom.

I guess, in general what I'm trying to say is that we can't make blanket decisions for 'racism', because it's never as simple as "that's racist!". It's a hot-button issue, that varies in definition, and can be largely interpretive. Vladimir's comments being unnecessary or not aren't really the issue. The issue is were Vladimir's make comments designed to insult/harass other players.

What you describe about Magistrates is like calling them babysitters.Make sure everyone plays nice and have a happy time? I doubt this is our role.

Our role isn't playing legislators either.In fact a precedent isn't Law.It is the strongest weapon to use for your defence but in terms of law it can be revoked by another one. It is not binding. So i am not trying to play the legislator either, i just want a precedent to be just enough so the next time someone will use it to his defense he will start of by a just base and not just a thoughless decision.

Don't try to find scales of racism, there are none.There are things that can be meaningless to you and a great deal to another. You cannot decide what is important for the offended and what not.I m sorry but you cannot.

Some may find racist to call a man of color black instead of African American, others may consider racist to call them poop with legs. ( i hate to bring such an example but i want to try and explain my point of view).

I perfectly understood what you meant with palettes but i am asking you again, why is it so important to describe a Chinese in order to enforce the fact he is lazy?What importance does it have?

All i m saying is that this is a sensitive matter, i am not negotiating my decision on the matter. I believe the accused to be guilty as charged. What i mean by that? The offense was unnecessary.See this is the title of this complain so this is the real issue. Some complained about such comment being unnecessary and i agree that it was, byt this issue raises more questions.

I may overanalyze some cases but that  does not mean i want to spam with my opinion over and over again the forum, i just believe such cases require discussion and shouldn't be take lightly because it will backfire and only then we will realize how wrong we judged upon it.

[D'Espana]

I'm fearing that I'm the one who is not explaining himself properly. I'm sorry, I'm not a native and perhaps I haven't used the best words to describe my thoughts, even though for me they seem clear enough. I'll try with another approach.

This case WILL be used for future references. If we make the precedent that making someone feel offended is enough to shut down an entire line of RP/behaviour/whatever, then it is as prone to abuse or even more than leaving open the "it's OK so long as it is not directed to a player with the intention to hurt"

It should be fine if it happens IC with no real ill will behind it, only representing the character's low opinion of a particular ethnic group. It's very obvious when it is done with the purpose to hurt (giant burning swastikas, anyone?), and in case of doubt, then  no action should be taken (we'd rather not punish an innocent, even if that means leaving guilt free a hundred offenders; I think that was kind of the Magistrate's motto)

Hell, I could have been the one accused if one of my characters had met some other ethnic group when I started playing, as I played him as a very close-minded and annoying folk. Now I have become milder, and I agree that this is bad taste RP. But only that, bad taste RP. Nothing that we should make a big quarrel over.

To sum up: I pretty much agree with Dishman. This is only a game, what means that people should not come here with the intention of playing the victim at every little thing that disgusts him at RL. Play as a noble, think as a noble and act as a noble of the Middle Ages, and that will immensely mitigate any hard feelings you might have while playing. I hope this time I've gotten my point accross.

[Gustav Kuriga]

This is pretty much my take.

This was gratuitous racism. There is no place for that in BattleMaster. Talking about fears of "allowing more censorship" is just making excuses for people to be offensive.

Basic rule of operations: Do not be unnecessarily offensive. Do not be unnecessarily easily offended.

I agree with this. And D'Espana, I'm sorry, but slant-eyes and yellow skinned is a strangely specific thing to have trouble in english with.

[Miriam Ics]

The magistrates' work here is to ensure that everyone can play without problems. For this it is necessary to enforce the rules and when they are not clear, discuss cases and establish precedents or, if appropriate, lead to the conclusion of the case for Tom to be established new rules or addendum rules.

There are cases where there are well defined rules, where it is either black or white, without the hundreds of shades of gray.
There are cases where it is necessary to take into account the small variations.

Racism is racism. There is no small degree of racism. Just how dirty is dirty. No half dirty or clean half. What are, is controversies about what defines racism because there is disagreement between what defines race and what defines discrimination.

If among all the nations of the world has not been possible to reach an agreement, is not it here that we can.

This is a game. Players should be able to play and have fun. If a letter like that causes embarrassment, should be modified and this should not be a problem.

This should be as IR.

Racism should be banned. Endpoint. Any form of racism, any suggestion, any message that suggests discrimination.
Discuss whether or not there was no racism and not if one was offended or if there is a greater or lesser degree of racism.
And if there was racism, then there was guilt.
The size of the penalty then, can and should be discussed and varied according to how much there was injury.

Incidentally, I do not understand why there is nothing about discrimination or racism in IR.

[Meneldur]

It should be fine if it happens IC with no real ill will behind it, only representing the character's low opinion of a particular ethnic group.

I think that this is clearly not the case here. There is no rp context whatsoever for the statement, no IC ethnic group with narrow eyes and yellow skin for Kas the character to hate. The racism seems to be randomly lifted from RL stereotypes and placed entirely without context into the game. If one wants to insult those evil and misshapen Toprakians then there is an argument to be made to allow IC medieval racism (though personally I think it best to be cautious anyway). But this is not the case here, and even if this is some kind of attempt to create "atmosphere" by introducing medieval racism then we should make it very clear that randomly inserting RL ethnicities and racist slurs word for word into the game with no IC or RP context whatsoever is not the correct way to go about it.