Author Topic: Unnecessary Racist Slur  (Read 29651 times)

Baatarsaikhan

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #60: May 27, 2013, 11:43:41 PM »
Racism should be banned. Endpoint. Any form of racism, any suggestion, any message that suggests discrimination.
Discuss whether or not there was no racism and not if one was offended or if there is a greater or lesser degree of racism.

At the risk of having certain people here who I happen to value their opinion of me, to be much less thoughtful of me, I want to ask:

Is racism banned specifically in the Social Contract? 

If so, mention clause, punish and be done with it.

If not, then by the Contract, he has broken no rules.  Punishing him on the basis of no actual rules-breakage is hardly fair, hardly the role of the magistrates and in a certain light, not much better.  Abusing one's role to punish people for non-illegal (in BM context) OOC actions is, I think we can all agree, not in the spirit of this game or this particular group.


Is it banned via an interpretation of a Social Contract clause?

If so, I think you need to have a very firm basis and legal logic to the path from social contract item through to this particular issue of racism, since it will be precedent from now on.  A clear link between casual racism and the contract would be needed, since you are de-facto linking that to Tom and the Social Contract.

If not, then see above about breaking no rules.


This all said, I think there is a conflation of two questions here, which while being heavily related, are still separate.

1) Does the Social Contract cover racism in whole or in part, and if so, to what extent are Kas' actions in violation of the Contract?

2) To what extent SHOULD the Social Contract cover racism?
"A man's greatest work is to break his enemies, to drive them before him, to take from them all the things that have been theirs, to hear the weeping of those who cherished them." -CHINGIS KHAN

Miriam Ics

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #61: May 28, 2013, 12:20:34 AM »
If so, I think you need to have a very firm basis and legal logic to the path from social contract item through to this particular issue of racism, since it will be precedent from now on.  A clear link between casual racism and the contract would be needed, since you are de-facto linking that to Tom and the Social Contract.

No, I am not. I am exposing my opinion on that matter and saying that I don't know why there's anything against racism and discrimination  in Inalienable Rights or in Social Contract. IMO it should be. That's why I brought Tom's name here.
IMO if the magistrates find a flaw in Social Contract they could/should take it to Tom so next time there would'nt be the need of a discussion.

I see no point in longs discussions here. Denounces here should be simple to decide. It IS a game. We are not deciding the future of the world.

But it is clear to me that my opinion differ - and much - from majority here.
"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."

Phellan

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #62: May 28, 2013, 12:48:16 AM »
I agree with this. And D'Espana, I'm sorry, but slant-eyes and yellow skinned is a strangely specific thing to have trouble in english with.

I found this too specific as well.   There are plenty of ways to be offensive and rude IC which have nothing to do with RL examples.    This combination is clearly related to RL racism - full stop.  It has no place in the game.

To me there is no middle ground here - using RL racism IG is unacceptable in all forms.

Baatarsaikhan

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #63: May 28, 2013, 01:13:17 AM »
No, I am not. I am exposing my opinion on that matter and saying that I don't know why there's anything against racism and discrimination  in Inalienable Rights or in Social Contract. IMO it should be. That's why I brought Tom's name here.
IMO if the magistrates find a flaw in Social Contract they could/should take it to Tom so next time there would'nt be the need of a discussion.

I see no point in longs discussions here. Denounces here should be simple to decide. It IS a game. We are not deciding the future of the world.

But it is clear to me that my opinion differ - and much - from majority here.

Sorry, Miriam, I'm a little confused as to what you are "not", in reference to the quote.  Would you explain further?  I was only using your quote to better define my position in any case, and not rendering judgement on it.

I think I'm more or less on your side of the argument here, in that advising Tom is certainly a role of the magistrates.  Also that there should be clear language in the contract as to racism.  Ditto as to long discussions.

My personal opinion is that Kas did not break the rules.  Not because the message wasn't racist (which IMO it clearly was), but because the contract isn't clear and/or specific enough on the matter of racism for there to be rules for Kas to break.  So, in this, Kas gets a break.  We should, however, address this in a Contract change/referendum/appeal-to-he-who-is-Tom.  Otherwise we risk basing decisions purely on opinion and personal feeling, rather then clear contract-breaking.  A result of this is expecting new players to not only memorize the Contract, but the entire body of Cases here on the forums AND be able to reasonably predict what the Magistrates will be "opinionating".
"A man's greatest work is to break his enemies, to drive them before him, to take from them all the things that have been theirs, to hear the weeping of those who cherished them." -CHINGIS KHAN

Velax

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #64: May 28, 2013, 02:52:20 AM »
If people have to be specifically told in the rules that racism isn't something you should do - in any game - then I fear for humanity. There are no specific rules in the game that say I shouldn't find out where a player lives, drive over there and take a !@#$ on his front doorstep, either, but its probably safe to say it's not something that should be done.

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #65: May 28, 2013, 03:11:34 AM »
Not to mention, I don't think Tom's ever been a fan of legalese and detailing every single possible instance of wrongdoing as if it were a codified book of law. Its simple principles to apply to situations (is this how to play amongst friends, with the basis being those friends are of an international player base and if its insulting to those players?), not something to nitpick and try to weasel around in.

Kwanstein

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #66: May 28, 2013, 03:14:02 AM »
Morals are relative, you shouldn't assume that everyone everywhere thinks the same way that most Westerners do. Most non-Western countries in fact do not make much of a fuss over racism, or when they do it's usually influenced by American media.

So, in order to not surprise people from non-Western backgrounds it should be made clear that racism isn't tolerated in any forms.

But in the case of Kas's letter specifically, this is much ado about nothing. It's a minor comment that's been blown out of porportion. In order to solve the issue, all that had to be done was to contact Kas privately OOC and warn him that that kind of thing is a bit controversial around here. At this point Kas probably knows not to do it again, so punishment would be useless and unfair in light of the fact that Western moral values aren't universally known.

Baatarsaikhan

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #67: May 28, 2013, 03:42:23 AM »
If people have to be specifically told in the rules that racism isn't something you should do - in any game - then I fear for humanity. There are no specific rules in the game that say I shouldn't find out where a player lives, drive over there and take a !@#$ on his front doorstep, either, but its probably safe to say it's not something that should be done.

...except that would be actually against most Western RL laws, and likely quite a few Eastern ones too.  Racism is an open topic in many places (contrast Africa vs. NA vs. Europe), and is interpreted in many different ways worldwide.  Legalese aside, it's just as arrogant to apply western ideals to a discussion on morals, especially if it has a tangible outcome on a person's activity, if not everyone in that discussion has bought into those moral viewpoints or is even fully aware of them in the first place.

Making it clear racism in ANY form is bad is better, then making an assumption about people's knowledge of a set of morals or ethics and then punishing people for not conforming to your assumption of their knowledge or agreement.

I think Kwanstein's solution is the simplest to resolve this issue quickly.  Then we can move towards firmly cementing racism as a no-no within the BM contract.
"A man's greatest work is to break his enemies, to drive them before him, to take from them all the things that have been theirs, to hear the weeping of those who cherished them." -CHINGIS KHAN

Velax

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #68: May 28, 2013, 03:50:40 AM »
Good job ignoring the point of the statement! You win a prize.

Were I to start playing an Arabic-speaking online game based in Saudia Arabia, I would spend some time finding out what was acceptable in that culture, rather than just jumping in and start making RPs talking about how much Allah sucks. A tiny modicum of research should be expected if people from other cultures decide to play a game based in a Western country. As opposed to just coming in and talking about "those lazy slant eyes".
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 03:52:38 AM by Velax »

Indirik

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #69: May 28, 2013, 03:55:21 AM »
So, we define racism is bad in the Social Coontract, and claim all is well and good in the world.

Until someone goes gay-bashing, and gets off because it's not explicitly against the rules. So we outlaw that one, too, and pat our selves on the back.

Until someone starts slagging on skinheads. Or single parents. Or women. Or mentally disabled. Or military veterans. Etc. Etc. Etc...

Or, we could just send this dude a friendly reminder from his fellow players about being more careful in his choice of words, remind him that we're all friends and that we all just like to have fun, and we all go back to playing the game, without having to hire lawyers to write us a 74 page Social Contract.
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Anaris

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #70: May 28, 2013, 03:56:04 AM »
Not to mention, I don't think Tom's ever been a fan of legalese and detailing every single possible instance of wrongdoing as if it were a codified book of law. Its simple principles to apply to situations (is this how to play amongst friends, with the basis being those friends are of an international player base and if its insulting to those players?), not something to nitpick and try to weasel around in.

Yes, this is precisely the point.

This is why the Social Contract tells you that you should play as if you were playing a game with friends, rather than attempting to carefully enumerate all the different things you should and shouldn't do.
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Velax

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #71: May 28, 2013, 03:57:17 AM »
having to hire lawyers to write us a 74 page Social Contract.

Get the guys from Apple to write it. They specialise in stupidly long Terms & Conditions that nobody reads.

Miriam Ics

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #72: May 28, 2013, 04:25:02 AM »
I'll repeat: I would rather tell the player to apologize and move on but, if that kind of phrase lead to a discussion like this one, than we need to think if there is a flaw in Social Contract.

In the last two weeks we had 10-12 pages discussion about two issues: whether Facebook is or not bounded by same rules we have here, whether we can or not accept racism or discrimination IC.

Is not a 74 pages contract, neither a lot of laws but, perhaps is one more line at the social contract IF, and only if, the magistrates conclude that is reasonable to take this to Tom.

Baatarsaikhan, I misunderstood what you said and I apologize for that.
"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."

Kwanstein

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #73: May 28, 2013, 04:45:00 AM »
A lot of websites have a very short disclaimer that racism, homophobia and discrimination are not allowed. That seems like a comprehensive list of Western taboos, so it could easily be implemented without being absurd in length.

Baatarsaikhan

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Re: Unnecessary Racist Slur
« Reply #74: May 28, 2013, 04:50:27 AM »
Good job ignoring the point of the statement! You win a prize.

Were I to start playing an Arabic-speaking online game based in Saudia Arabia, I would spend some time finding out what was acceptable in that culture, rather than just jumping in and start making RPs talking about how much Allah sucks. A tiny modicum of research should be expected if people from other cultures decide to play a game based in a Western country. As opposed to just coming in and talking about "those lazy slant eyes".

No, I caught the point.  I'm dismissive of it, for several reasons that I think are very obvious.

1) You assume research, when the game ONLY requires reading and comprehending the social contract.  It doesn't matter what you THINK I should have to do.  I am required to follow the contract, not your opinion of what I am to do.

2) You assume foreignness, when obliviousness or ignorance works just as well.  This game draws a lot of people from across the internet.  Assuming they are fully aware of where the game is, what is its moral slant (current vs. historical) is based in what aspect of the Contract, again the only thing I;m required to know?

See, in short, my point is that while YOU can apply your morals and codes of behaviour to me however you see fit, the player of the game is bound only within game's social contract.  If it's not within the contract, then no, you're not allowed to apply such.  The contract is not clear as day on this matter, since taking offense at something is as variable as white noise.
"A man's greatest work is to break his enemies, to drive them before him, to take from them all the things that have been theirs, to hear the weeping of those who cherished them." -CHINGIS KHAN