Letter from Magnus Himoura (1 day ago)
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Dame Alma,
Would you prefer we start flogging nobles? Or should we just ban and execute on the first offense. Fines are worse for repeat offenses, and in the case of continous and blatant disregard for orders, banishment follows. I have never accused either you or Sir Julius of not following orders. Insubordination, yes, but at least you do your damned jobs.
Also, that chamber pot better be sparkling when it is returned to me.
Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn
Roleplay from Alma Aeterdust (23 hours, 57 minutes ago)
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"Hear this, Rein, the Commander wants his chamber pot sparkling when returned. He even announced it to the whole realm."
Alma's captain chuckled. "We should purchase him a gem studded chamber pot. That one would be sure to sparkle."
"Indeed, what a wonderful idea!" Alma laughed soundly, imagining the Commander's face if they returned with a chamber pot studded with various colored gems... She was most tempted to try it, only to see his expression.
"He will get his chamber pot back the same way we came by it," Alma declared when she settled down. "Full of piss. His piss. I find it quite similar to his latest orders that way."
Letter from Alma Aeterdust (23 hours, 56 minutes ago)
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Commander,
I must point out you are the only one who proposed flogging nobles in our conversation so far. I cannot say I am much impressed by the suggestion or what it spells of your opinion of the nobles under your command. If you had read my missives more carefully you might have figured out that I am of the opinion that fear of punishment is not as empowering a reason to follow orders as our current reasons. And the way you are going about it, I believe you would have us all following orders for fear of punishment or just wishing to avoid it.
If simply speaking out against your methods falls under insubordination in your opinion, so be it. I will not try to change your mind, nor will I act any differently in the future if I feel my concerns are warranted. If you wish for someone to just fall on their backs and take whatever you dish out with a smile on their faces and no protest, troop leaders are not the profession you are seeking. The harlot tents are at the periphery of camp. Though, I should warn you, some moaning might be involved even there.
My regards,
Alma Aeterdust
Dame of Hatdhes
Out-of-Character from Alma Aeterdust (23 hours, 55 minutes ago)
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Also, fining people for not logging in is in fact in violation of our inalienable rights, as far as I know. And I can really see this situation going that way, not necessarily, but quite possibly...
Raluca Borozan
Out-of-Character from Magnus Himoura (23 hours, 43 minutes ago)
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Nobody is being fined for IR reasons. Consistently not following orders is ALWAYS a valid reason for punishment. Go to the forum and read similar magistrate cases and you will find it to be so. I'm not asking people to log in every turn, or even every day. I am making a very simple order to click a few times when you do log on. In the future, please avoid throwing around the IR as a gigantic "I do what I want" shield.
Justin Licht
Out-of-Character from Alma Aeterdust (23 hours, 21 minutes ago)
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I don't recall throwing around the IR now... I do recall expressly mentioning it might not come to that. I intended it as a caution, not as a stop-whatever-it-is-you're-doing... My apologies if it seemed that way.
Anyway, you might see it as a simple order to click a few times, I see it as an order to click a few more times than I usually do when I log in. There is a difference.
Raluca Borozan
Out-of-Character from Magnus Himoura (23 hours, 11 minutes ago)
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Granted. I have never been a player to care about 100% movement 100% of the time. RL takes precedence. I missed a whole turn yesterday because of a kidney stone (which might explain if I seem irritated, if I do I apologize, its my shredded urinary tract talking, not me). The issue Magnus is taking is that he sees very, very few reports of takeover attempts, and I even talked to one of the devs to how many show up and whatnot, because in my experience I've seen a lot more in a realm with fewer nobles (its actually based on how effective your attempt was, if it was only marginally effective, it doesn't get reported). Pus its memorial day weekend, I don't expect too many people to be on. I've got a parade to march in tomorrow, and a barbecue to follow, I might be on BM during part of it, but I'm an addict :p, and that's the exception not the rule. I'll never push for punishment because someone couldn't log on, but at the same time if someone is just sitting around soaking up tax gold, I'm not going to sit around and not say anything. If there is ever an incident where Magnus pushes for punishment on someone, and they shoot me an OOC note saying "hey I haven't been on because of xyz" I'll let it slide. I've played for ten years, and enjoyed it, and have a number of people I know enjoy playing in realms I'm in, and I do strive to make it fun. But, Magnus is a character, and he's a rather serious type. He is the third generation of his family to war with PoZ and he badly wants to put an end to them.
Justin Licht
Letter from Rosalind Foxglove (22 hours, 50 minutes ago)
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Kindarans,
I'm pleased to see so many nobles discussing things for a change. It's just a pity that it is an argument that has made everyone more talkative. I would ask everyone to speak with the respect befitting the nobility. The Commander's frustration over the slow progress of the takeover is understandable and he is doing what he feels he needs to do to improve military discipline. His command style is simply different to that of the late Commander Alpha.
I would never suggest that nobles should be mindless, voiceless, pawns. But I hope that if there are disagreements about the phrasing of the Commander's orders they can be discussed in a respectful fashion.
My regards,
Lady Rosalind Foxglove
Grand Justiciar of Kindara
Margravine of Ortedail
Letter from Castor Bernkastel (22 hours, 46 minutes ago)
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While we - obviously - have no right to ignore orders, we do have the right to leave the realm when those that give orders are patronizing and impolite. Your disgustingly apparent trips of superiority, your jokes on your nobility having to be treated like children, and the flush of chamber pot jokes on a public forum, betrays your upbringing. I suggest against advice on raising children, you might not have been raised as well as your family would like to believe.
Castor Bernkastel
Knight of Batesaor
Out-of-Character from Leofric de Vere (22 hours, 41 minutes ago)
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I imagine much of this stemmed from the first mention (IC) of Inalienable Rights. Please note that the IR on activity protects players from being punished for not logging on a certain number of times, or not logging on at a certain time. It does not protect you from the consequences of your IC actions or non-actions. It is not a catch-all excuse to allow you to do, or not do, whatever you want whenever you feel like.
From Tom, the Developer of the game:
The IRs are OOC fun-preservation tools. But you can still assume that the other person is playing the game. "Don't ban for inactivity" does not mean you can never ban anyone for not doing anything. It just means you have to make sure that the reason is not OOC inactivity.
People seem to think that IC inactivity also is protected, but it isn't.
Eoghan Barry
Letter from Magnus Himoura (22 hours, 41 minutes ago)
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Sir Castor,
I do believe your upbringing lacked in education about etiquette and hierarchy. In the future, do attempt to correct this. Thank you,
Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn
Out-of-Character from Farrigan Fuor (22 hours, 38 minutes ago)
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Let's be clear: in the medieval times this game is based on, nobles and knights could be far more than just fined for not following orders (which is quite plainly the problem here). People aren't following orders. If people don't log in, that's their choice. But if they're purposely making that choice, they should either pause their character or let someone know. Sometimes stuff happens and emergencies come up, and that can be dealt with case-by-case. But people should never drop their character(s) in enemy territory and then just go inactive. That's just plain stupid, when it's not due to an emergency.
I'm really not understanding how two people suddenly made such a big problem out of a commander ICly making a very valid and very enforceable 'threat' to call for fines by the Magistrate if nobles are neglecting their duties. Ignoring and disobeying orders is most certainly not an 'inalienable right', nor is speaking disrespectfully to a superior officer. That could have severe political ramifications, usually more costly than a mere fine.
Tim Graves
Out-of-Character from Farrigan Fuor (20 hours, 51 minutes ago)
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I am well aware of the potential for collectives of landed nobility to crush their kings, yet that required extensive popular support and/or vast wealth and military power. Three nobles, none of them landed, is far from a collective. And the petty way they've chosen to express their cause-less dislike is far from noble. The commander made a statement well within his right, and people immediately feel threatened, despite allegedly following orders, which would thus leave them with nothing to fear.
Tim Graves
Out-of-Character from Julias Talboh (18 hours, 38 minutes ago)
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After sending Julias's first letter, I almost immediately realized that mentioning inalienable rights might have been a mistake. Sure, they're OOC fun-preserving tools, but then I decided that it would be alright and that nobles actually do have rights, anyway. Maybe not "inalienable" ones, but they still had to be treated a certain way by social standards. I stand by that decision. Anyway, regarding the IRs:
Don't let some of those hardcore players create a problem out of activity. Being allowed to play at whatever activity level you wish also means you should not suffer disadvantages for doing so. If you are fined, banned, threatened or otherwise punished for "inactivity", or for not having been online at any specific time or day, the Titans will be very happy to counter, so please contact them with information.
-BM Wiki
Do note that bit about being threatened. Perhaps somebody should already have been contacted about this whole affair. Personally, I'm very happy with the letters and roleplay that have resulted from it, but if I hear of any characters being fined because they aren't supporting the takeover every single turn (thereby forcing them to login every single turn), then I'm going to contact either the Magistrates or the Titans, and with good reason. We are not talking about characters getting their orders and then saying, "no, I will not support this takeover." We are talking about people who most probably did not log on to do it, and characters are protected from that kind of punishment.
Zach Eubanks
Out-of-Character from Leofric de Vere (18 hours, 33 minutes ago)
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Something else from the Wiki, Zach, from the Social Contract everyone agreed to when signing up to play:
One important rule is that you either contact the Titans, or you don't. Do not threaten other players with them. We have issued temporary account locks for people who said things like "do this or I'll bring you up to the Titans".
Eoghan Barry
Out-of-Character from Leofric de Vere (18 hours, 32 minutes ago)
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*"Social Contract enforcement" page, that should be.
Eoghan Barry
Out-of-Character from Julias Talboh (18 hours, 31 minutes ago)
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Yeah, I knew I remembered that from somewhere. Guess I have to follow through now. Oh well; it'll be nice to have this issued settled.
Zach Eubanks
Out-of-Character from Alma Aeterdust (16 hours, 13 minutes ago)
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Since we're quoting the Wiki today (which might be partially my fault), here's a few other tidbits:
Being able to be inactive at any time, for reasons he doesn't have to disclose, with no prior warning or excuse, is the one holy right of every BattleMaster player. Anyone so much as touching it will feel my unrestrained wrath. --Tom 20:46, 15 May 2006 (CEST)
So, contrary to Tim's opinion earlier today, we can not log in whenever and wherever, without having to explain it or give notice. And the problem I saw here was that while fining a character for not following orders is all fine and good (well, not in Alma's opinion, but I hope I explained that well enough IC), the moment you fine the character of someone who just didn't log in, it stops being all fine and good. So, it doesn't have to come to that, but there's a possibility it might and I just wanted to point it out and give caution.
As for the issue of being disrespectful to a superior officer, that does go both ways you know? I'll grant you I play Alma as confrontational and sometimes a bit crude, but none of us should just be fine with having orders pushed at as in an abrupt and toplofty manner. Here's something from the Government rules of the Wiki:
Try to guide, not order
This is a game, not the military, even if it simulates a martial society. Try to guide people. Work with suggestions and help and leave people their autonomy. A strict hierarchy of orders and blind followers is more efficient, yes. It also causes people to lose the fun and leave the game.
Play within the game background
You are playing a noble in a medieval feudal society. Your conduct and behaviour should fit to that background, and as a leader you should very much encourage others to follow.
Most importantly, the world of BattleMaster is not a militaristic one, and blindly following orders does not befit a noble. Engage the other players instead of just passing out orders.
It's from the rules part, not the suggestions...
Raluca Borozan
Out-of-Character from Magnus Himoura (16 hours, 6 minutes ago)
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Of course. My wording on that original set of orders was poor. I've said it, and I'll say it again: I will never request a fine for anyone for missing a turn, not conducting a TO one turn, etc.
Where I will draw the line is consistent ignoring of orders. In Character inactivity, where you log in, do whatever, and choose not to follow orders, is not an IR. If its clear someone is logging in, and doing stuff, but not following orders they are fair game for punishment. If I ever mistake inactivity for not following orders or anything, just let me know, I'm not out to get people who are less active. Magnus is out to get people who are disobeying orders, and in a wartime scenario, its very appropriate. Is he a bit overbearing? Yea. Is he not the nicest person when angry? Definitely. Does he care a bit too much about winning? Arguable.
I will note however, this past turn that takeover participation has risen sharply.
Justin Licht
