Author Topic: What does Atamara need to happen?  (Read 32343 times)

Telrunya

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #45: June 01, 2013, 11:48:18 PM »
Quote
With the current production in the region and the efficiency of your estate, assuming everything stays this way, you can expect a weekly tax income of about 197 gold, of which you will have to give 10 gold to the region lord, leaving you with 187 gold of personal income.

No reason to complain ;D

Perth

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #46: June 02, 2013, 12:23:32 AM »
Too bad some of you are the laughing stock of Atamara soon to board a ship out of the continent :D

Why have you been so hostile to me?
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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #47: June 02, 2013, 12:33:12 AM »
Why have you been so hostile to me?

I hate Kerwin because he is a backstabbing jerk.

Perth

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #48: June 02, 2013, 12:35:53 AM »
I hate Kerwin because he is a backstabbing jerk.

Oh... right... ?

Sorry he lost the war? He totally did so on purpose to screw you guys!
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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #49: June 02, 2013, 12:41:51 AM »
Oh... right... ?

Sorry he lost the war? He totally did so on purpose to screw you guys!

Oh come on. Merlin promised you Massilion and you let Coria live. You could always help with their destruction and expand to their land but NO, you wanted Massilion so bad since you think Darka betrayed you and all that crap. Things would be a lot different now.

Perth

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #50: June 02, 2013, 12:51:18 AM »
Oh come on. Merlin promised you Massilion and you let Coria live. You could always help with their destruction and expand to their land but NO, you wanted Massilion so bad since you think Darka betrayed you and all that crap. Things would be a lot different now.

Actually... no. No. That never happened. Merlin certainly did not promise Kerwin anything. Not land, at least.

I don't know who told you that, but they lied to you. Ask Silverfire yourself.


You know who did want to attack Darka and get Massillion back? Arturius and the Rieleston folks. Kerwin refused and that is one of the contributing reasons to their secession. They thought Kerwin was "soft on Darka."
"A tale is but half told when only one person tells it." - The Saga of Grettir the Strong
- Current: Kemen (D'hara) - Past: Kerwin (Eston), Kale (Phantaria, Terran, Melodia)

Stabbity

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #51: June 02, 2013, 01:18:21 AM »
Do they remember that the war started after certain influential members of Eston claimed relations to a peasant and demanded compensation for his death?
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Indirik

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #52: June 02, 2013, 02:41:17 AM »
I don't think that commoner stuff had anything to do with the war, really.

Plans were leaked to Darka that the Duke of Massillion was promoting a plan to have Eston attack Darka.

But srsly, Skiarxon, you need to lay off Perth. Whatever his character did was done by his character, as an IC/IG action. There's no reason to take that as free license to continuously insult and harass the player.
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Vellos

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #53: June 02, 2013, 04:10:14 AM »
Regarding what Atamara needs (I've only skimmed this thread): imperial breakup is the key. The question is, HOW do we break up the CE bloc?

There are basically three routes for this to happen:
1. Spoils-squabbling
2. Leader-balancing
3. Internal dissent

1. Spoils-squabbling
In this scenario, CE bloc breakup will occur when Darka is soundly defeated and forced to accept humiliating terms. CE will maybe have one or two more cleanup wars and police actions after Darka, but they will basically have conquered or defeated all of Atamara. The presumption here is that CE and allies are actually highly ambitious. Tara fulfilled its ambitions by expanding eastwards. CE fulfilled its ambitions crushing Carelia and Falasan, founding puppet realms in Strombran and Coria. Coria itself has expanded northwards, though its home-grown ambitions have already been squashed for now. Strombran seems unlikely to be able to muster up any serious political ambitions for a while. Talerium will make gains at Darka's expense. But after Darka, what? Expand Coria into Minas Leon? Sure, maybe, but Coria is the least reliable of CE's allies, while Minas Leon is Tara-alligned, while its other neighbor, Rieleston, is CE-aligned. So where will Coria be expanded? Eston, the already-defeated enemy? Maybe.

The premise here is that CE's allies will find that increasingly costly long-range wars requiring larger and larger amounts of time and soldiers and coordination will yield diminishing spoils to be shared around. And they will set to squabbling when there are no enemies left to fight. Territorial squabbles, for example: Strombran will demand allied help to expand eastwards to be an equal partner with the others. Or maybe Coria will want to be regarded as an equal as well. These kinds of squabbles will be kept on the backburner as long as meaningful spoils stand to be gained: but when the last enemy is killed, will all the hyper-militarized armies go home and hang up their shields, or will they start looking at each other?

If we buy this theory of conflict-creation (inter-alliance conflict will occur when no more enemies exist to fight), then Darka's defeat/surrender would be a good prelude to a more dynamic Atamara. Thus altruistic Darkans should lay down and die for the sake of Atamara's bored player proletariat.

2. Leader-balancing
But maybe the CE alliance hasn't done a good job of apportioning spoils. Corian attempts at independence seem a symptom of this argument: CE has misunderstood the desires of its puppets to be equals. Thus if the war with Darka fizzles, Talerium may suddenly find itself very much a junior partner: and they kept some semblance of peace with Darka. Or maybe CE peripheral states like Strombran, Minas Leon, Rieleston, and Coria will begin to assert themselves, coalesce to try and "balance the leader" (meaning CE, or possibly CE/Tara).

This argument has its main strength in Silverfire's Phoenix Empire. If the Phoenix Empire were regarded as not just a peculiarity of Silverfire, but rather a symptom of a larger desire by peripheral states to balance against a hegemonic and interventionist leader, then we might think this argument is strong.

If leader-balancing is the main source of conflict, then the way to make a more dynamic Atamara would be an alliance switch away from CE to Darka or some other third entity. The north seems paralyzed in local affairs; I know nothing about the south. To me the lynchpin here is Talerium. A Talerian betrayal of CE could unleash a similar betrayal by Coria, and opportunistic strikes by northern realms like Lyonesse and Eston.

If we buy this theory of conflict-creation (dynamic wars will return when smaller states collaborate to balance out and challenge the influence of super-states), then a Talerian betrayal of CE would be a good prelude to a more dynamic Atamara. Thus altruistic Talerians should hurl themselves on the altar of CE's army, committing suicide in the name of inspiring other peripheral states to turn on CE/Tara (or maybe inspiring Tara itself to fight CE).

3. Internal dissent
The above theories focus on relations between states. But as we all know, BM is not a perfectly state-centric system. There are multiple levels of cooperation and conflict and motivation. Maybe real dynamic conflict is truly grassroots, and filters upwards. In this theory, conflict will originate if there are ambitious people with real power in an environment with heterogenous interests, values, desires, expectations, or beliefs. Thus the real "stability" of CE/Tara is not a geopolitical one, but a symptom of the lack of meaningful religious or cultural conflict, and a powerful sense of state-centric military solidarity managed via guilds.

Thus conflict occurs when somebody with different interests or values gets power and becomes ambitious: even if they're in the same realm. I'm thinking of Magna Serpaensism here. CE's extermination campaign against that religion seems indicative of CE's intuitive grasp of the need for religio-cultural uniformity. An emphasis on collaborative military planning and shared institutions would be another symptom, as would the distribution of ranking offices reliably to long-term mentees and loyal supporters via an extended patronage network.

So we will have stagnation no matter what the political landscape looks like as long as Atamara has so huge a mass of nonpolitical religions, effective military-planning guilds, longevity-based political systems, and team-playing mentality.

If we buy this theory of conflict-creation (dynamic wars will return when serious conflicts of values and interests exist within the CE bloc) suggests that altruistic CE-bloc nobles need to begin founding sub-alliance guilds for specific rather than general purposes, altruistic religions around Atamara need to work harder to exert political influence beyond mere national concern, greater risks should be taken in political appointments by all players, and players should work harder to build personal patronage networks.

---

I'm not sure which theory I buy most of all, but any of them seem plausible.
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Geronus

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #54: June 02, 2013, 04:40:28 AM »
I'm not sure which theory I buy most of all, but any of them seem plausible.

I only buy the first. Internal dissent is virtually non-existent in CE and Tara, the only two realms for which it might matter. Both realms are up to their eyeballs in sheeple. Just look at the dukes of CE; they have each, on average, been in CE for 1958 days, a figure which is considerably brought down by the very recent ascension of Susan Maxwell, who only has 789 days in realm. If you replace her with the previous duke of Skalk, Celestial Fury, you get an average of 2180 days for each Duke. Even at the lower figure, that's over five RL years in realm for each Duke. I'll let you lay what the odds would be on one of them rocking the boat. Apart from that there hasn't been so much as a single disagreement in the entire time I've been present (a mere 138 days), at least not one that was shared realm-wide. Tara is similar from the outside. It's harder to count the exact number of days since I'm not in the realm, but approximately speaking, the realm's Dukes have also been in realm for a full five RL years on average.

As far as leader balancing, well, Coria is the only client state of CE that actually has any notable ambitions, thanks to Silverfire. Talerium is a terrible example to use. Aldarion Tezokian has been the ruler there virtually constantly since 2003, and it should be evident that he has virtually no ambitions for Talerium at all at this point. Strombran might, but I don't know anything about them or their goals, if any. Some of the newer realms could stir the pot, but I don't know exactly how committed either CE or Tara are to their newest clients, if that is in fact what they prove to be. If push comes to shove, I'm not certain where the chips would fall. The most likely thing to happen is simple stagnation. My guess is, none of the above will really come to pass, but rather than CE and friends will keep busy by interfering in the squabbles between the newest realms as they jockey for position and favor. Heck, it could be another year or more before the various pieces of Eston come back together, let alone whatever happens to the pieces of BoM, Carelia, and whatever might be left of Darka after the war, and I'm certain CE and Tara will involve themselves in the outcomes to shape it toward whichever pawns they favor most.

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #55: June 02, 2013, 06:55:40 AM »
I don't think that commoner stuff had anything to do with the war, really.

Plans were leaked to Darka that the Duke of Massillion was promoting a plan to have Eston attack Darka.

But srsly, Skiarxon, you need to lay off Perth. Whatever his character did was done by his character, as an IC/IG action. There's no reason to take that as free license to continuously insult and harass the player.

I don't have anything with Perth OOG.

Elroy

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #56: June 02, 2013, 05:04:05 PM »
You know who did want to attack Darka and get Massillion back? Arturius and the Rieleston folks. Kerwin refused and that is one of the contributing reasons to their secession. They thought Kerwin was "soft on Darka."

Do you really think that no one is going to correct you on statements like this?  Arturius and his supporters pressured Kerwin to get tough with Darka regarding their stance on Talerium.  Kerwin is the one who suggested attacking Darka in a  suicide move that was shot down by Arturius before Elroy sent the information to his fellow members of the Darkanism faith.

Kerwin was a poor diplomat and weak, arrogant leader...that is why we Rieleston folks got tired of Eston...not some OOC conspiracy.

Lavigna

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #57: June 02, 2013, 05:09:49 PM »
Do you really think that no one is going to correct you on statements like this?  Arturius and his supporters pressured Kerwin to get tough with Darka regarding their stance on Talerium.  Kerwin is the one who suggested attacking Darka in a  suicide move that was shot down by Arturius before Elroy sent the information to his fellow members of the Darkanism faith.

Kerwin was a poor diplomat and weak, arrogant leader...that is why we Rieleston folks got tired of Eston...not some OOC conspiracy.

Now this is fun to know. At least this way i know i wasn't wrong for Kerwin. I also deeply dislike him as a character and always thought he wanted to see Darka going down while he was still King. whoa really.I just hope he packs his stuff and gets the hell out of Darka XD
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Velax

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #58: June 02, 2013, 05:53:47 PM »
Good ol' confirmation bias.

Eirikr

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Re: What does Atamara need to happen?
« Reply #59: June 02, 2013, 05:57:57 PM »
I think Vellos has a pretty good handle on this. I feel like two of the three possibilities are already working to some degree.

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