The Dwilight University

[De-Legro]

I can understand that many people are busy in real life and are not able to play the University as I hope they would, that is not what I am addressing. So far, however, it seems to me that the University has an image problem.

First, it should never be looked at as "Bowie's University" because he is not the sole authority. If for instance a "History of Sanguis Astroism" was submitted to his department he would never reject it just because he is the religion's opponent. He can't, he is the Dean of History, it would contradict his position. Sure in his work he injects his views but he has never done so to distort the facts and he has never ignored a challenge to his work. Anyone is free to submit an alternate history, as happened with the Chronology, and he will have to accept it.  And Sejieda is rarely active, but even if he was I am sure he would agree with me on this point. We could never, in spite of ourselves, throttle the vitality of the University because of our own personal decisions. It is not a political institution, it is academic and social. That is why leaders from opposing realms are members, and can freely chat with each other without outside strings attached. Inside the University is secular (that is to say available to all members of any religion) and a free and open institution.

Regarding the Dean of Theology position, Pasha Blatkovechkin should have been promoted (and he applied several times, Bowie even vouched for him) because of his contributions to the department, not because he was an SA priest. The Theology department should be an academic field for all religions not a bell jar over the ones not pertinent to the Dean. Deanships should be given to the best regular contributors of a field. A Dean of Theology then is someone who examines, explores, challenges, analysis, experiences etc. religions of Dwilight. This position has to abide by the same point I made above. If the Dean of Theology accepted or rejected works based on her own policies and not the open spirit of the institution then she should not be the Dean. What they submit is their own, but what they allow submitted should depend on the quality (not content) of the work.

 And, the University is not strictly for realm or political interaction spawning material, there is an Arts department (perhaps for avid writers/roleplayers), a political science department (for those who have ideas or experiences on how realms/elections/positions and more are handled), and other fields that are open to core roleplay source building, to wholly invented works, and to entertaining Dwilight focused material. I guess all of this depends on the time and commitment of the player, but I think it is rewarding if even you submit something small. Contributing to the game (and wiki) is a way of playing the game in my mind.

The fact it is view as Bowie's University should be a indication of exactly what kind of esteem Bowie is held in by other characters. It matter little what you tell us OOC about how he won't do this or that. You will have to work IG to correct the IG views that characters hold of the institution.

[Indirik]

The fact it is view as Bowie's University should be a indication of exactly what kind of esteem Bowie is held in by other characters. It matter little what you tell us OOC about how he won't do this or that. You will have to work IG to correct the IG views that characters hold of the institution.

I fully agree with De-Legro. You can make all the OOC claims on the forum you want. But the forum isn't the game. You need to be doing all that in-game. Convincing people in the forum, then expecting them to change what they do IG, is a blatant violation of the spirit of the game.

[Vellos]

Culture can originate from things other than religion. I hoped the Illiterati would produce fictional works from various realms for us to enjoy. Like a story of a noble who lived in the Occidens battling the monsters, etc. It would give other players insight into those realms through the eyes of another character. A realm could become famous for its heroes and adventurers. Why not? The Keepers of Lore tried to do something like this but suffered from the same lack of contribution as the University is.

Because there is no reason to contribute. I have contributed the Occidens article because Hireshmont has political objectives that necessitate Occidentalism. It's political positioning. Many, maybe most, characters and objectives do not require such subtleties.

But Sanguis Astroism could. If it allows its theology department to become co-opted by SA, there will be a reason to contribute, as the University's Theology department becomes SA's intellectual wing. It is a reason to contribute that ties in to the game and other RPed institutions.

I don't really understand the downside here, unless you are suggesting that the University should be anti-SA. Medieval Universities are not secular, enlightened, liberal places for neutral assessment of information.

[Ironsides]

I fully agree with De-Legro. You can make all the OOC claims on the forum you want. But the forum isn't the game. You need to be doing all that in-game. Convincing people in the forum, then expecting them to change what they do IG, is a blatant violation of the spirit of the game.

Well I started this discussion hoping to figure out what people thought of the University and why most aren't playing it. I guess I am directly the cause of that...? Anyway, Bowie is what he is and does what he does and if no one bothers to challenge him its their own fault. What I thought was important was the activity of the University as a populated community not the fact that one of the only contributors was a push factor. I'm really not sure how that could be fixed, because then it would turn into me playing Bowie differently (which is the opposite effect of this post)

Because there is no reason to contribute. I have contributed the Occidens article because Hireshmont has political objectives that necessitate Occidentalism. It's political positioning. Many, maybe most, characters and objectives do not require such subtleties.

Excellent and hopefully one of the many reasons other players could have to play the University too.

But Sanguis Astroism could. If it allows its theology department to become co-opted by SA, there will be a reason to contribute, as the University's Theology department becomes SA's intellectual wing. It is a reason to contribute that ties in to the game and other RPed institutions.

I don't really understand the downside here, unless you are suggesting that the University should be anti-SA. Medieval Universities are not secular, enlightened, liberal places for neutral assessment of information.

Okay, I get how that would work but then what about nobles not SA? Would a VE priests be allowed to work for the Theology Department? Probably not, which removes the pan-Dwilight appeal of the University. Hence why I stress keeping the department and the whole guild neutral. It is fine for a realm to say only this type of religion may hold government positions, but in a guild that is not supposed to be realm specific it is not alright. I am not suggesting it is anti-SA, just not SA only.

[Gustav Kuriga]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schola_Medica_Salernitana
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_university

Pretty sure they were secular to some degree, while religious in the theological department. Much of the science taught at these schools were based off either ancient Greek or Roman texts, or Arab teachings. Jewish academic texts were also included in the top school, if not in general.

[De-Legro]

And yet in medieval Europe the Church could decide which books and texts were acceptable to be taught, so even when it appears secular, the Church was dictating the curriculum.

[Gustav Kuriga]

If the school was being run by the church, yes.

"Universities were generally structured along three types, depending on who paid the teachers. The first type was in Bologna, where students hired and paid for the teachers. The second type was in Paris, where teachers were paid by the church. Oxford and Cambridgewere predominantly supported by the crown and the state, a fact which helped them survive the Dissolution of the Monasteries in 1538 and the subsequent removal of all the principal Catholic institutions in England."

[De-Legro]

It matters not, since the Church simply placed the book on the banned list, and persecuted any who produced it, read it or taught from it as a heretic to the church. Although it is a bit later then the period generally accepted that BM takes place in Galileo was placed under house arrest by the church for his work Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, the book banned from being published in Catholic countries, and all his future work was also banned and all his previous work was also banned. He was also forced to publicly recant the theory.

You don't need to control the University when you have such control over the countries the University operates in.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Sources. You need to prove this was case for all universities and not just those under the directly under the control of the church. I went through the trouble of looking it up, now it is your turn.

[De-Legro]

"It was the potentially dangerous subject of theology that concerned the Church far more than natural philosophy and most examples of discipline relate to the former. These systems were essentially the internal disciplinary procedures of the universities and, as we have seen, the usual sanction was little more than having to recant the error and amend ones work to correct it. Matters would only usually leave the auspices of the university if there was an appeal or if the matter became notorious and widely known as, for example, in the case of the Amalricians of Paris where the teaching of a university theologian threatened to produce a heretical sec"

"As  many academics were also members of the mendicant orders, even in institution not nominally run by the Church so they were also under the governance of their order and could face disciplinary proceedings from this direction. The most famous case of this is Roger Bacon who appears to have been imprisoned by his superiors in the Franciscans for not having his work vetted by them before publication"

"The most infamous agents of medieval church discipline, the inquisitors, do not appear to have had a major role in dealing with academics but could become involved in certain cases. Word that someone had been teaching heretical opinions could reach the ear of the local inquisitor who would investigate and, on finding the allegations to be true, get the teacher to admit and recant his error before handing down his penance. As the inquisitor was not part of the university it is likely that the case would already have acquired a degree of notoriety, perhaps due to public disputations or lectures, before he heard of it and having done so he would be obliged to act."

"The facts are set out in the condemnation of Cecco who was burnt at the stake in Florence on 15th December 1327 [NOTE]. Three years previously, he had been found guilty of “utterances against the Catholic faith”, by the inquisitor Lambertus of Cingulo in Bologna where Cecco was a professor, with the result that he was fined, had his books confiscated and was banned from teaching or practising astrology. Unfortunately, the condemnation does not tell us what the offending utterances were, although later authorities, such as the fifteenth century inquisitor, Franciscus Florentinus, mention that he had taught and written that Jesus lived and suffered the way he did because he was born under a special star which had also led the magi from the East [NOTE]. Contrary to what Franciscus insists, Cecco does not mention any such thing in his extant books (even those that were burnt with him) so his utterances were in all likelihood verbal and made in lectures. As Cecco was not more severely punished we can also assume he confessed to and repented of his errors. However, his was clearly a serious heresy as he did not get away with a simple recantation such as required of Blasius of Parma in 1396 when he was also convicted of “utterances against the Catholic faith” [NOTE]. Cecco left Bologna and made his way to Florence where he promptly flouted the inquisitor’s strictures and became court astrologer to Jacob of Brescia. This wilful disobedience immediately marked him out as a recalcitrant heretic and when he found himself before the Florentine inquisitor, Accursius, it is no surprise that the he was handed over to the secular arm. As burning was the expected fate of a re-offender the judicial machinery seems to be working as expected."

What you need to remember is the Catholic church was in many ways central to life in Europe, and that many secular powers relied on the Church in some way to maintain their power. The power to declare someone a heretic was indeed powerful, and it was expected that ALL Catholic Rulers and Lords would enforce Church rulings within their holdings, both in regards to heretical rulings and other less serious offenses. Obviously they interfered most in Universities that either taught Theology, or in area's the Church had a vested interest in such as astronomy.

Another factor to remember is that the thing that made them Universities in the modern sense rather then the studium generale (university) and universitas (corporation of students or teachers) that preceded them was the issue of a Papal Bull which rendered them autonomous and provided the mechanism by which anyone admitted to be a teacher in the recognised university had the right to teach everywhere without further examinations.

Finally there was the concept of Studium generale or a registered institution of international excellence by the Holy Roman Empire, and these were considered the most prestigious places of learning in Europe. This may be part of receiving the Papal Bull, I'm not 100% sure if you could be issued a Papal Bull yet not be a Studium generale. Both theological and secular universities were registered. I believe the Vatican still does confer this title on Universities, but I'm not sure anyone really cares anymore.

[Indirik]

Well I started this discussion hoping to figure out what people thought of the University and why most aren't playing it. I guess I am directly the cause of that...? Anyway, Bowie is what he is and does what he does and if no one bothers to challenge him its their own fault. What I thought was important was the activity of the University as a populated community not the fact that one of the only contributors was a push factor. I'm really not sure how that could be fixed, because then it would turn into me playing Bowie differently (which is the opposite effect of this post)

I wouldn't suggest that you play your character IG any other way than makes sense for him IC. But that also means that some of the things you as a player might like to happen, may not happen IG. If you really want it to happen, though, perhaps Bowie needs to somehow realize what's going on himself, and figure out how to change it.

[Vellos]

If the school was being run by the church, yes.

"Universities were generally structured along three types, depending on who paid the teachers. The first type was in Bologna, where students hired and paid for the teachers. The second type was in Paris, where teachers were paid by the church. Oxford and Cambridgewere predominantly supported by the crown and the state, a fact which helped them survive the Dissolution of the Monasteries in 1538 and the subsequent removal of all the principal Catholic institutions in England."

And what type of degrees were primarily given?

Philosophy, Medicine, Divinity, and Law.

Philosophy is obviously in the hands of the Church. Divinity too. Law, especially at Bologna, was largely canon law.

[Ramiel]

And what of us who do not subscribe to the idea's of Sanguis Astroism, or even those that subscribe to them being inherently evil?

Yes Sanguis Astroism is a very large religion by Dwilight standards, however it is also largely based in the north, then again everything is pretty much North by PeL standards .

What of us in the South? Are we to be denied the full possibilities of the Dwilight University because we in character and roleplay we could never subscribe to the idea's of Sanguis Astroism? If so then it stops being the Dwilight University and should be renamed the Sanguis Astroism University of Dwilight.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Bowie's got no affiliations with SA, except possible enmity, yet he's apparently the History Department.

The Military Studies Department at some point was also not affiliated with SA, and I believe that was back when Jefferson Vita was doing that department. There's not much going on there right now.

The Theology Department has mostly been SA because that's the largest religion in the area where the University is most concentrated. Want to get heard? Put in the effort to be heard I guess.

The Arts Department isn't really SA, I think. Just a bunch of poetry or something.

The Humanities Department was also not really SA. I think it was about Unterstrom being run by the mob, and I think Bowie did something talking about how Sallowtown was...something.

The Arcana Department currently is only about Hericus Lefanis talking about how he chilled out with daimons in the past.

And I think that handles everything in the University. As you can see, it is not much affected by SA. In fact, one could even say it is not affected by much of anything recently.

[dustole]

Yes Sanguis Astroism is a very large religion by Dwilight standards...

I'm pretty sure SA is the largest religion in the game.  We blew past the previous religion records long, long ago.   So I would say we are a large religion by  BM standards.