Fane

[Atanamir]

IC - Zakilevo wants Fane gone. Oligarch is a long lost city for Sirion. It once belonged to Sirion's most famous prime minister, Doc Primus. Retaking the city, the prize Sirion earned by defeating the realm of Oligarch which once threatened Sirion greatly, means Sirion will finally restore their former borderline before the great northern war. The restoration of the republic will be complete with Oligarch

OoC - I was always a big supporter of more realms. It is boring and uninteresting to have big realms. Sirion obviously is becoming too big and occupying one quarter of the continent may sounds good but it does nothing but bring more enemies. I hope Sirion makes another realm or something once Zakilevo retires.

If you play the Doc card, will you follow then as well his idea again to split afterwards into the United States of Sirion again: Sirion, East Sirion, West Sirion (and Eleador)? 

[Atanamir]

I'm amazed at how people forget that Perdan and Westmoor were ready to enforce the most outrageous terms to us, wanting to erect new realms and wanting to see Erik exiled. Unfortunately for you, Westmoor lost and we want to see Jor stripped of all his supposed power. Or you want to see your Church burned like we did with the Flow?

Eduardo, which Perdan King wanted that Erik gets exiled? I can't remember these terms, but maybe I was in Sirion back then...

[Indirik]

OOC, I can see many benefits in Fane continuing to exist. Speaking as a player, I don't really see what will be added to the game by Sirion destroying Fane, beyond Sirion saying, "Woo-hoo, we got another chunk of land". It's painfully obvious that Sirion is already too big. They only have loose control over Commonyr much of the time, even though the regional lord (lady in that case) spends most of her time there. They're getting close to the point where the realm's going to have to split.

Sirion has held it before. I do't see why they couldn't again. They may not get much taxes out of it, but it's not all about taxes.

It's fairly clear that the next big war is going to have to be either Sirion vs Perdan, or Sirion vs Caligus. Once either Perdan or Caligus wins the southern war, there won't be anyone else big enough for them to bother fighting except Sirion. The same applies to Sirion in the north - the only realms for them to fight will be either Perdan or Caligus.

Sirion v. Perdan would be a boring war. To start with, Westmoor is in the middle. Makes life difficult for Westmoor, for however long they would last before becoming roadkill. After that... boredom would set in. Perdan couldn't break through Sirion's Maginot Line, and Sirion wouldn't really be able to hurt Perdan at all, due to the choke point in Bescanon.

Sirion v. Caligus... Another boring war, because Caligus would get reamed. Don't get me wrong, Caligus is pretty scrappy, and can put up a good fight. But they're just not in Sirion's league.

Sirion and Caligus vs Armonia and Eponllyn is a possibility, but it would mostly be a long-range war.

That..... is not even remotely possible.

But Perdan currently seems to be making mince-meat out of the south.

Aye, Perdan is doing quite well for themselves. Mostly due to the complete lack of coordination on the part of the allied forces.

Allowing Fane to exist will create a more interesting dynamic in the north, and is no threat to Sirion because it's too small. There would also be the potential for Sirion to possibly gain and cultivate Fane as an ally, depending on the approach they took.

If they're too small to be a threat, then what good are they as an ally? Essentially, anything that makes someone a good ally, also makes them a dangerous threat.

On the other hand, Sirion can't gain much more land before all of the realms on the continent see them as the greatest threat and someone initiates another mass war against them. Bad news for Sirion, especially because they've been losing nobles.

Sounds like a good reason for Sirion to take Oligarch, then!

[Foxglove]

Sirion has held it before. I do't see why they couldn't again. They may not get much taxes out of it, but it's not all about taxes.

That was long before the Big Update. They don't have great control over their western border regions. The stats in both Commonyr and Krimml can start to go south if the lords aren't in the regions much. To an extent, Oligarch is about the taxes. If you're not getting anything out of the city, running taxes at a low percentage to keep control, and don't have the knights to populate estates, what's the point? Just seeing how far you can spread the Red Blob of Death across the map before they implode? *Yawn*

Sirion v. Perdan would be a boring war.

Sirion v. Caligus... Another boring war

So what are the alternatives for Sirion? Sirion and the strongest survivor of the Perdan/Caligus scrap running seperate wars wailing on much smaller realms? Nivemus vs Sirion isn't going to happen. In the event of a Perdanese defeat in the south, Caligus and Eponllyn vs Armonia might happen, and Sirion might get bored enough of sitting on the sidelines to chip in.

That..... is not even remotely possible

Erm... yes, it is. Although it is remote, it would just need a few changes in the political leaders (not specifically the rulers). But it would need Eponllyn to survive the current war, which I'll grant looks highly unlikely.

If they're too small to be a threat, then what good are they as an ally? Essentially, anything that makes someone a good ally, also makes them a dangerous threat

Short-term thinking. If Fane survives, it would eventually grow. It could do that and still remain as a city state. From the player's perspective, Fane existing is much more interesting than Sirion finding it has to split and then creating another puppet realm. It's essentially whether Sirion wants to take a chance on allowing something interesting to happen rather than playing it safe as usual. Yeah, Fane might become an enemy and a threat, but so what? It gives Sirion someone to fight. Sirion's big problem is that they've systematically blocked the growth of any realm that could become a decent opponent, resulting in their only options for decent future wars being Sirion vs Perdan, or Sirion vs Caligus, or Caligus/Sirion vs Perdan.

[Eduardo Almighty]

If Fane survives, it would eventually grow...

Fane will not have time to grow. We can always think about the future with the foundation of new realms, not just from Sirion, but in the south as well.

[Foxglove]

Fane will not have time to grow. We can always think about the future with the foundation of new realms

Sirion's big problem is that they've systematically blocked the growth of any realm that could become a decent opponent

Another puppet realm, then. 

[Eduardo Almighty]

Puppet realm... 

Westmoor is a puppet realm of Perdan!? Oh, wait... yes. however, a new realm coming from Sirion can conquerer a good amount of lands to become a strong "puppet realm". You know... we use "puppet realms" to offend our enemies... among us we call "brother realms" 

I'm just contesting the idea and hope to see Fane in this situation. They would have to grow over Westmoor and then I believe you will want to see Sirion with Oligarch instead Armstrong as your new King.

[Foxglove]

Seeing Westmoor as a puppet realm of Perdan is a fundamental misunderstanding of the political history between the two realms. The same goes for the Perdan/Obsidian Islands relationship too. I'm not saying that Nivemus, or any other realm Sirion might found, might not become a future opponent for Sirion, but it won't happen for years because they have to be populated with Sirionite loyalists to get them off the landing pad.

The line about Sirion calling its puppets "brother realms" is a funny one. It reminds me of that scene from Blackadder Goes Forth discussing German and British spies:

British General: "German spies... filthy lot, all of them."

British Captain: "We have spies too, Sir."

British General: "Ah, stout-hearted, brave fellows. Risking all for King and country."

I'm just contesting the idea and hope to see Fane in this situation. They would have to grow over Westmoor and then I believe you will want to see Sirion with Oligarch instead Armstrong as your new King.

As a player, I'd be willing to roll those dice and take a gamble to allow something interesting to happen in the hope that it would restore some fun to the north. However, you're just backing up the original point I made by saying that Fane would expand over Westmoor, instead of over Nivemus, for example. It just reinforces what I said about Sirion blocking the growth of any realm that might become a decent opponent. To a certain extent, it'll be Sirion that suffers from that because you'll eventually have no-one left to fight without treking the full length of the continent.

Mind you, it might just be that I think Fane's realm crest is just too cool to disappear. If Fane gets wiped out, I hope Ironsides gets the chance to reuse it somewhere in the game.

[Zakilevo]

OoCly, I wouldn't mind new realms growing to become a decent opponent. But ICly, it is my character's job to limit the potential danger to minimum. Any sane realm would try to keep their enemies down before they actually become a problem.

[Indirik]

To an extent, Oligarch is about the taxes. If you're not getting anything out of the city, running taxes at a low percentage to keep control, and don't have the knights to populate estates, what's the point?

ePeen. If they have it, you don't, and they gloat over that fact.

So what are the alternatives for Sirion?

Dunno. But I've seen the Perdan/Sirion thing before. You have to get the realms in between involved, or you can't have a war. But we've done Sirion/Fontan v. Perdan thing. If it weren't for Ibby/Ito gobbling up Perdan from behind, we could have held them off indefinitely. But Sirion won't have that, unless they convert Westmoor over to their side. Not gonna happen. (Westmoor may not be a Perdanese puppet, but unless you have some *serious* realm turnover, you're not going to turn them against Perdan.)

We've also seen Everyone v. Sirion. That didn't go anywhere.

Sirion and the strongest survivor of the Perdan/Caligus scrap running seperate wars wailing on much smaller realms?

IAIHAC.

In the event of a Perdanese defeat in the south, Caligus and Eponllyn vs Armonia might happen, and Sirion might get bored enough of sitting on the sidelines to chip in.

Sirion is a staunch ally of Caligus. What will you do to break them apart?

Erm... yes, it is. Although it is remote, it would just need a few changes in the political leaders (not specifically the rulers). But it would need Eponllyn to survive the current war, which I'll grant looks highly unlikely.

*Anything* could happen if you start changing out leaders. But that's really not worth speculating on, unless you have plots in the works to actually remove those leaders. (And if you do, you won't be talking about them here.)

Short-term thinking.

In a way, yes, it is. But if you want Sirion to let Fane survive, then you have to give them a reason. "Let them live, and maybe they will eventually grow large enough to want to fight you" is hardly a compelling IC argument to allow them to live. The formation of Fane is an insult to Sirion. I can understand perfectly, IC, why they wouldn't want to let it survive.

Sirion's big problem is that they've systematically blocked the growth of any realm that could become a decent opponent,

Really? Who have they oppressed? I would be interested to see this list.

[Gustav Kuriga]

OoCly, I wouldn't mind new realms growing to become a decent opponent. But ICly, it is my character's job to limit the potential danger to minimum. Any sane realm would try to keep their enemies down before they actually become a problem.

Honestly, it's this kind of stuff that ticks me off the most. "OOC I want something to happen, but IC my character doesn't, so I won't let something happen." If you want something to happen OOC, but can't do it for some IC reason, pause your character right then. If your character is keeping you from having fun, then please... PLEASE distance yourself from those constraints.

[Indirik]

Seeing Westmoor as a puppet realm of Perdan is a fundamental misunderstanding of the political history between the two realms. The same goes for the Perdan/Obsidian Islands relationship too. I'm not saying that Nivemus, or any other realm Sirion might found, might not become a future opponent for Sirion, but it won't happen for years because they have to be populated with Sirionite loyalists to get them off the landing pad.

What you are describing is exactly what happened when Perdan created Westmoor. It was founded with Perdan (and Caligus, but mostly Perdan) loyalists. It was a staunch Perdan ally for a LONG time. It *has* been RL years since the founding of the realm (almost 5 RL years now), and they are still strong allies of Perdan. From the outside, you have to admit that this strong and immutable relationship sure looks like it could be a puppet realm.

As for Obsidian Islands.... No one gave a damn about the islands. It's a craphole. The entire island chain wasn't worth anyone bothering to make a puppet out of, until they got their hands on some mainland real estate. The most useful thing the islands ever did was provide a realm for someone to overthrow (i.e. the Kalmar Islands) so that Perdan, Itorunt, and Old Rancagua could send troops to beat the crap out of them and create the Obsidian Islands. After we wiped out KI and recreated the realm as OI, we ignored them. They just weren't worth the effort.

To a certain extent, it'll be Sirion that suffers from that because you'll eventually have no-one left to fight without treking the full length of the continent.

Oh, seeing Sirion collapse from boredom wouldn't break my heart too much. In fact, I might just hoist a frosty beverage in salute.

[Zakilevo]

Oh, seeing Sirion collapse from boredom wouldn't break my heart too much. In fact, I might just hoist a frosty beverage in salute.

Same. I have no sympathy for boring realms. They should die.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Maybe there is a general thinking that Sirion will eventually conquer the East Continent, leaving it infertile for new wars. We can collapse because of it -- or simply require more coordination of our enemies. Also, many new realms can grow from collapsed realms.

[Turner]

What you are describing is exactly what happened when Perdan created Westmoor. It was founded with Perdan (and Caligus, but mostly Perdan) loyalists. It was a staunch Perdan ally for a LONG time. It *has* been RL years since the founding of the realm (almost 5 RL years now), and they are still strong allies of Perdan. From the outside, you have to admit that this strong and immutable relationship sure looks like it could be a puppet realm.

As for Obsidian Islands.... No one gave a damn about the islands. It's a craphole. The entire island chain wasn't worth anyone bothering to make a puppet out of, until they got their hands on some mainland real estate. The most useful thing the islands ever did was provide a realm for someone to overthrow (i.e. the Kalmar Islands) so that Perdan, Itorunt, and Old Rancagua could send troops to beat the crap out of them and create the Obsidian Islands. After we wiped out KI and recreated the realm as OI, we ignored them. They just weren't worth the effort.
Oh, seeing Sirion collapse from boredom wouldn't break my heart too much. In fact, I might just hoist a frosty beverage in salute.

Speaking from my characters efforts as the Ambassador for Westmoor and working closely with all the monarchs to date, Westmoor hasnt had much choice in that regard. Sirion doesnt want to be friends with Westmoor, neither does Nivemus. Caligus is happy to maintain peaceful relations with us, but all efforts thus far have proven futile in advancing relations. My character is of the view that we acknowledge our ties to Perdan and would like to maintain good relations with them, but not at the detriment to Westmoors future and prosperity. During the current wars, my character has even questioned our alliance with them. Perdan started the war in the North, then leaves Westmoor to rot to tend to matters in the South. He feels that Perdan started this mess and has now left Westmoor out to dry at the mercy of superior numbers from Sirion. Perdan doesnt seem to care about our fate, what kind of ally is that? From that point, its not hard to see Westmoor is not a blind puppet If you actually understand what is going on within Westmoor.

Perdan and OI to a point, have been the only ones really to provide any sort of support and commitment to Westmoor. My character left the door open for Sirion to change that, but during the previous war when my character was disucssing peace with Zakilevo, it was made clear that Sirion had no desire to improve relations with Westmoor, especially while we were friends with Perdan.

So really, at the end of the day, Westmoor currently doesnt have much choice.