Author Topic: Titan System Revalation  (Read 46391 times)

Vellos

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #90: April 27, 2011, 02:01:47 AM »
But... that makes no sense at all.

You think reporting to the Titans should be like asking a player how many cards are in his hands, but you want to put obstacles in the way of reporting people to the Titans, so that only severe issues will be reported?

That makes no sense.
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De-Legro

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #91: April 27, 2011, 02:23:05 AM »
But... that makes no sense at all.

You think reporting to the Titans should be like asking a player how many cards are in his hands, but you want to put obstacles in the way of reporting people to the Titans, so that only severe issues will be reported?

That makes no sense.

That is not my interpretation of what is being said. To me they are simply saying it might make people pause and consider, do I really think they have done anything wrong, or am I just pissy that they thwarted my plans. A second factor would be the way the complaint was worded. If you know that the text is going to be posted, you might not let your obvious anger/hatred spill over into what should be a objective report.
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Heq

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #92: April 27, 2011, 03:07:36 AM »
This may sound wierd but I'd like to have the ability to ask the Titans before something takes place, or just to keep them in the loop.

Like "Hey, X happened, s'okay to say Y?"

If the Rulers worked with the Titans a lot of malarky could be cut out at the nub and Titan actions could be done either OOC or IC.  I'm a big fan of IC resolutions and while there may not be cases where it can be worked out, there's probably some cases in which in can be.

Of course, I'm a dirty hippy with a beard, so I even think that we should have mediators, so if someone thinks they are hard done by they can ask for a mediator (preferably from another continent), who can take a boo at the situation and say "X sounds like a fair punishment" or "Yeah, that's a little harsh for a first time offense", or even "No, that Titan let !@#$ slide on this."  Like how we do for nobles who write, and if the punishment doesn't fit the crime then it can be discussed as to what a better punishment might be.

That was there is something like an appeals court, so it would start being mad conspiracy time in order for someone to shake their fist and yell "personal vendetta".

De-Legro

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #93: April 27, 2011, 03:13:57 AM »
This may sound wierd but I'd like to have the ability to ask the Titans before something takes place, or just to keep them in the loop.

Like "Hey, X happened, s'okay to say Y?"

If the Rulers worked with the Titans a lot of malarky could be cut out at the nub and Titan actions could be done either OOC or IC.  I'm a big fan of IC resolutions and while there may not be cases where it can be worked out, there's probably some cases in which in can be.

Of course, I'm a dirty hippy with a beard, so I even think that we should have mediators, so if someone thinks they are hard done by they can ask for a mediator (preferably from another continent), who can take a boo at the situation and say "X sounds like a fair punishment" or "Yeah, that's a little harsh for a first time offense", or even "No, that Titan let !@#$ slide on this."  Like how we do for nobles who write, and if the punishment doesn't fit the crime then it can be discussed as to what a better punishment might be.

That was there is something like an appeals court, so it would start being mad conspiracy time in order for someone to shake their fist and yell "personal vendetta".

I would say the only problem here would be ensuring the Titans had the resources to respond promptly. As I understand it no Titan makes a decision on their own, so to give such advise they would need to have the time to discuss the matter, collect all the background context and then provide the answer. In many cases this process may be too long to be useful.
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Heq

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #94: April 27, 2011, 08:03:07 AM »
Well, I've never been involved with the Titans in any way.  Did not know they had a Quorum, but I don't see the need to do more then police multis and stop huge douche-baggery.  I mean if we self-police we'll all be a lot better off.

Some people won't self-police, but if 90% of us do and take it seriously that douchebags should not be rewarded they will always be outnumbered nine to one and that should work too.  I don't see what the push is to change the system unless there is something inherently broken about it, not when we can add fun things with the same amount of time and effort.

De-Legro

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #95: April 27, 2011, 11:28:35 AM »
Well, I've never been involved with the Titans in any way.  Did not know they had a Quorum, but I don't see the need to do more then police multis and stop huge douche-baggery.  I mean if we self-police we'll all be a lot better off.

Some people won't self-police, but if 90% of us do and take it seriously that douchebags should not be rewarded they will always be outnumbered nine to one and that should work too.  I don't see what the push is to change the system unless there is something inherently broken about it, not when we can add fun things with the same amount of time and effort.

I think Multi investigations rely largely on Tom. Titans deal with things like the SMA and the inalienable rights. If we could self police reliably, there would have never been a reason to form the titans.
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Lefanis

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #96: April 27, 2011, 01:19:04 PM »
I think Indirik said something like this a few pages ago. Why not post the evidence that led the Titans to make their decision to the forum? Include any dialogue they(titans) may have had together. Preserves the anonymity of the person who complained and titans. Then the community has the opportunity to see for themselves that the decision taken was the fairest and best.
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Chenier

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #97: April 27, 2011, 05:34:33 PM »
Such abuse would be painfully obvious to all the other players involved, and would certainly result in the culprit being not only banned from ever being a judge again, but probably from the game as well.

But the damage would be done.

Also, it would not need to be very obvious at all. I know of many influential players who keep OOC contact with other influential players. It'd be easy to share these letters and act on them while pretexting something else.
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Chenier

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #98: April 27, 2011, 06:09:49 PM »
Erm, has everyone missed me posting that anonymity isn't the goal, but getting rid of the atmosphere that requires it is?

It's a large community, it can't be helped. You just can't have the same atmosphere with over a thousand people than with under a dozen.

I've seen my lot of bad players. And players who weren't necessarily bad but that I couldn't stand the least bit.

Playing BM can be compared to many other games revolving large numbers of players more than to board games which have half a dozen at most, usually. If you play LARP, for example, are you going to quit playing if one of the hundred people is a total !@#$%^& who can never respect the rules joins up? If you know he is close enough to hear you, will you start an OOC convo with a friend because he IC can't hear you and would be disallowed to act on these noises? Or if you play paintball and you know that one of the guys in the other team often listens to your frequency even if it is again't the rules. It's hard to prove he's doing it, but you can probably guess it. Will you keep saying sensitive info on the radio about locations if this is the case? Or if you've never played that team before, would you risk "massacre" on faith of good will?

We have a large player base, and internet grants a good amount of anonymity. It simply cannot work like a board game with 5 like-minded people does. It doesn't require 20% of the player base being rotten for people to naturally desire anonymity. It only takes 1. Weeding 1 person out of 5 is one thing, weeding 1 person out of more than a thousand is quite another. And there are certainly more than 1 rotten players in the game.
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Tom

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #99: April 27, 2011, 07:16:19 PM »
But the damage would be done.

Not of the community shows it defends its values.

The real world has the same problem. You show up as witness in a crime case, you've surely made yourself an enemy or two. But we have a legal system that clearly says "if you mess with my witnesses, there will be hell to pay" and that works fairly well (except in cases of organized crime, etc.)

The world is not safe, playing in it means that sometimes, there are consequences. Same with BM. But if we keep the consequences in check so far that they don't make the game less fun, then all is well.

Don't look for a perfect solution. There is no such thing. There will be problems with anything, current or future. It's important to understand where the problems are, not try to eliminate them all.

Tom

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #100: April 27, 2011, 07:22:28 PM »
It's a large community, it can't be helped. You just can't have the same atmosphere with over a thousand people than with under a dozen.

Nonsense.

I've been to a few pretty large real-life events, with thousands of people in them. Some have this "everyone for themselves" spirit, but others have the "we're a big family" spirit, even at that size.

Sure there are things that depend on size. Say, an all-hands gathering - that becomes rather unwieldy beyond a few dozen. But whether you treat your fellow players like friends or like dangerous criminals is not one of those things. And what bugs me about the Titan system is that we do treat them a lot like dangerous criminals. In that sense we set the mood. And then we're surprised they follow.

Some here claim that the Titan system needs anonymity and all kinds of protections because some players are !@#$%^&s.
I hold against that that the Titan system treats all players as potential !@#$%^&s, so it really isn't much of a surprise that some of them act like that.

The tone in a community is set at the top. We want players to be friendly, we need to treat them friendly. All of them and with a trusting attitude. Everyone should be considered a good player until he has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that he isn't. But we need to set the assumption that players are well-meaning.

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #101: April 27, 2011, 08:04:18 PM »
This may sound wierd but I'd like to have the ability to ask the Titans before something takes place, or just to keep them in the loop.

Like "Hey, X happened, s'okay to say Y?"

By opening the process like Tom suggests, this kind of thing would be as simple as a forum post. Something like "I am not really sure if this is a issue but I have been noticing.... Is this OK? Should this be happening? Does corrective action need to be taken or do I simply need to be educated?"

This does not even have to take the form of a full blown report to the Titans. Simply a discussion thread. If it turns out that this really is something to be concerned then one simply makes a refined post regarding the issue in the Titan's Forum. That is how I envision it at least.

A big part of this is moving from the mindset of catching evildoers and putting them in their place via Titan complaints to cooperatively discussing potential issues in an attempt to find a good resolution for the community as a whole. I definitely believe that issues, once brought to the Titan's Forum should be well moderated and guided. It should be established from the beginning that the goal is not placing blame and punishing wrong doers but discussing issues and coming up with cooperative solutions.

Bedwyr

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #102: April 27, 2011, 08:31:50 PM »
Excluding multis as has already been given...I think that could work.  The topic about Perdan's capital move, for instance, has been quite civil and if we can keep things in that vein then that would seem to be the best way forward.

And, frankly, most of the IR violations I've seen have been people forgetting something or getting really into the game (either positively and negatively) and temporarily losing their mind ("Bwahahahah!  We just destroyed their army, their capital is wide open, no one head to the tourney because we're going to finish this war right here right now!  You don't want to miss it!!!")
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Morningstar

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #103: July 07, 2011, 12:29:28 AM »
I realize I'm way late to the conversation.  I also realize that I've been away from the game for what I'm guessing is nearly 3 years.  (Actually, just found the resignation email I sent- September 2008.)  But I guess either we never fully had discussion on the subject back then or time away has given me some new thoughts and I figured I'd share them now.

1) Let me start by mentioning to those who don't know or remember, that I was one of the original Titans.  I say this for two reasons.  One, I hope it gives a little credibility knowing I've been on the "other side", but mostly I think it maybe points out a flaw we always (at least used to) have with the system.  Unless things have changed, the Titans were always "anonymous" and their identities as players were kept secret.  Some were a little more vocal than others and it was clear that they were a part of the group, but for the most part, there was never any official, public list stating who was a part of the team.  Thus, any efforts at transparency within the system died a horrible death at its onset.

There was certainly good reason for such anonymity, especially during the project's infancy.  Any action taken by a newly formed, untrusted body to police and harness rulebreaking was taken as an attack, or at least an affront, on a person or said person's character.  So not knowing who it was who cast "judgment" on you was safer for the Titans, who feared unfair retribution.  However, as I look back now, this certainly caused more harm than good.  There is, and has always been, a strong emphasis on the fact that the Titans are not above other players.  The players behind those accounts are not more important, more vital, and do not carry more authority than anyone else in the system.  What they were, however, were individuals who were willing to volunteer their time and efforts, as well as being people Tom himself knew to be trustworthy.

But the opinion of the general populous never really swayed toward them.  Mistrust and claims of "the Titans are out to get me" or "the Titans are only supporting their characters and their friends with unfair advantages" were prevalent and I doubt those have fully gone away.  The biggest, most simple answer in terms of trust is this: Titans should not be anonymous.  If you want transparency at the bottom and the entire system to be trustworthy, transparency must start at the top.

2) Titan actions have always seemingly come from out of nowhere.  As Tom has mentioned, this needs to be curbed.  Both accuser and accused should receive official in-game notifications at every step along the way.  First, when a complaint is received, detailing the complaint itself.  Second, when a complaint is accepted or rejected (along with rejection explanation to both players involved).  Third, when a decision has been reached, again with explanation on the decision to both players.  Transparency includes keeping people updated on progress, whether good or bad.  It also allows the accuser to know whether their complaint is being dealt with in a timely fashion- something I know we had issues with from time to time early on.

3) Once a decision has been reached, both the accuser and the accused should receive a notification upon logging into the related characters and be given a series of followup options that must be addressed before playing said character again.  Something as simple as "Accept Decision" or "Appeal Decision" with, once again, space to provide explanation/apology/affirmation/whatever.  That "option" probably should not be optional either, now that I think about it.  This provides space for feedback from the two players involved.  It's a good initial gauge on how the situation was handled and also is a simple way to make sure both parties full acknowledge the decision instead of simply ignoring a "slap on the wrist".

4) Regarding transparency within the community, I don't think that having the playerbase be a part of making the decision is wise, for many of the reasons stated by others, but also because of expediency.  If you open things up to discussion, they could drag on until the dawn of time if some of you get ahold of it- I still remember many of you quite well.  ::)

Instead, what I would recommend is to have the final decision made public. This does two things.  One, it establishes precedent for all to see and should encourage equal decisions for equal infractions across the board.  As a result, players find out that everyone is being treated fairly and with no special treatment.  The second thing this allows for is open discussion after the fact, so that both the Titans and the players can learn from the interaction and better move forward.

5) Multi-account accusations should be made into a separate option, plain and simple.  Everyone has already excluded it from the other suggestions made, and it should probably be established by in-game mechanics that there's a difference too.  Furthermore, if it doesn't bog down the servers too awfully much, it might be prudent to set some rolling multi-checks- both inter and intra-realm.  (Say for instance, Colonies today could have a Lukon-Assassins check and also check inside each of those realms.  Next day could have OT-Giblot, etc.)  System could be automated, I'd imagine, fairly easily to alert the Titans when a relatively high match score turns up and they can take over from there.  I know when I had the time on my hands as a Titan, I would occasionally do "random" checks on questionable accounts and was surprised how many hits I sometimes got.  Automating as much of the checking process as possible should help with the time constraints and also will cut down on how many are floating out there.

6) If you want to have an "expanded pool" of trusted people to help the process, while also adding another layer to the community involvement, have a larger group simply in charge of expediting complaints.  I spent some time briefly as an expediter with ChaCha and the whole job was to filter out questions, categorize them, and pass them along to the proper places.  This idea could be used similarly here.  For example, bring in a group of 20-30 people whose sole job is to filter out and accept or reject complaints.  If, after 10 or more votes are cast, a (approve)- b (reject) > 0, it's passed along to the Titans.  Likewise, if a (approve)- b (reject) < 0, the complaint is rejected and it never moves on to the Titans.

Oh, and... it's good to be back.  :P
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 12:48:18 AM by Morningstar »

Tom

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Re: Titan System Revalation
« Reply #104: July 12, 2011, 09:32:17 PM »
That's great input.

I agree on #3, that's a good thing.


I think - and this is a spontaneous thought, so sue me, or better, comment - we may find a middle ground.

We can have an open process, with a set body of Titans who decide. They aren't bound by the discussion, but they are strongly encouraged to take it into account. And they should not be anonymous. They can, I think, be pseudonomynous as in their forum identity doesn't have to reveal who they are in-game. Or they could have a second forum account. But it should be possible to have a name on the decisions.