New religion idea for Dwilight: Agrarian Faith of the Ancestors (working title)

[Tiridia]

Chenier,

So, you are saying that giving the rural lords some backing up regarding the question of how they should deal with their food is not sufficient? I have been under the impression that at times the question of food holds much importance in diplomacy and politics. If a starvation is a sign of disrespect towards ones ancestors, then what if the rural lords let some margrave starve his city, declare him a sinner and refuse to sell him?

I have a feeling I am missing something here. What have the successful religions done to gain their success?

[Perth]

In order for a religion to maintain people's interests in the long run, it has to get involved somehow in politics and control.

Most importantly, along with politics and control, the religion must find a way to span multiple realms. A religion can have all the power and political control in a single realm, but that hardly makes it a fun or "successful" religion. The religions that are the sole "State Religions" of a realm, and no where else, are rarely fun or anything like. They are usually just a hollow shell being used to keep foreign realms from using the few offensive religion based actions against them and vice-versa.

[Chenier]

Chenier,

So, you are saying that giving the rural lords some backing up regarding the question of how they should deal with their food is not sufficient? I have been under the impression that at times the question of food holds much importance in diplomacy and politics. If a starvation is a sign of disrespect towards ones ancestors, then what if the rural lords let some margrave starve his city, declare him a sinner and refuse to sell him?

I have a feeling I am missing something here. What have the successful religions done to gain their success?

Cities are the centres of wealth, and will be even more so after the economy rebalance. No realm will accept that rural lords intentionally starve the cities.

Rurals as the centre of power is simply counter-nature. Rural realms are weak, and so are rural lords.

[Indirik]

So, you are saying that giving the rural lords some backing up regarding the question of how they should deal with their food is not sufficient? I have been under the impression that at times the question of food holds much importance in diplomacy and politics.

Make sure you have the judge on your side, or your attempts to control the food trade will result in quick fines/bans from the realm. Realms are touchy about their food supply (and rightly so).

If a starvation is a sign of disrespect towards ones ancestors, then what if the rural lords let some margrave starve his city, declare him a sinner and refuse to sell him?

Shouldn't you persecute the rural lords for causing the starvation? Seems to me that if you declare starvation to be the the wrath of your ancestors, then sitting on a pile of food while people starve would be the most dire of sins imaginable. Besides, refusing to sell the city food, and then declaring the margrave to be a sinner for letting his people starve? That's like holding some guy's head underwater, and then saying it's his own fault for drowning.

[vonGenf]

That's like holding some guy's head underwater, and then saying it's his own fault for drowning.

Or throwing a women in the fire, and claiming she's a witch if she survives.

In other words, perfectly SMA.

[Tiridia]

Cities are the centres of wealth, and will be even more so after the economy rebalance. No realm will accept that rural lords intentionally starve the cities.

Rurals as the centre of power is simply counter-nature. Rural realms are weak, and so are rural lords.

Well, this I agree with. I suppose you could think of this religion as mixing one part of excellent roleplaying template and another part of a sort of a farmer's union (or Grange!). Of course cities are strong, but it would seem too easy to go for them. I want to try something new here, like trying to find a niche and grow from there. If the faith truly managed to gain a significant portion of the rurals, it might begin to have some sway with the matters. The fact that the rural lords are weak is what interests me in this concept. Alone they are weak, but what if they could be united? What if, collectively, they could press for a higher share of the taxes in the cities, and would then be able to field decent units for themselves and their knights?

Make sure you have the judge on your side, or your attempts to control the food trade will result in quick fines/bans from the realm. Realms are touchy about their food supply (and rightly so).

Shouldn't you persecute the rural lords for causing the starvation? Seems to me that if you declare starvation to be the the wrath of your ancestors, then sitting on a pile of food while people starve would be the most dire of sins imaginable. Besides, refusing to sell the city food, and then declaring the margrave to be a sinner for letting his people starve? That's like holding some guy's head underwater, and then saying it's his own fault for drowning.

I am not much concerned with what is right and what is wrong. Religious dogma rarely makes sense to the outsiders while for those inside, all sorts of odd argumentative errors are graciously accepted. Circular logic only needs to make sense to the believers, and for the outsider to understand its implications. Besides, I do not think it would be anything too black and white, like trying to gain direct control of the food supplies. It would likely be much more subtle. Of course it would be in the best interest of the margrave to be a member to secure ample food of flow in good price, but amicable relations to the faith would probably suffice. Basically it could be something like "be nice to us and let us preach and convert the rurals, and all will be well with the food".

Or throwing a women in the fire, and claiming she's a witch if she survives.

In other words, perfectly SMA.

Exactly. It does not need to make sense. Someone letting his region or his realm starve has clearly not been respecting his ancestors, so the decision to not sell food to him was a right choice, because clearly he was unworthy. It's circular reasoning, thus a fail safe argument for a medieval religion.

Not fair, of course not, but all I am trying to do here is to add some interesting tensions and create potential for conflict. And to have some fun and share it with the rest of you.

[Tiridia]

By the way, the idea is that you could start a religious order commemorating any deceased noble - not necessarily that of your family, realm or even the same continent. Any memorable personality from the past could be thus put into good use, on your own terms.

[Frostwood]

As much as I like your ideas, calling yourself Prophet when you do not have a religion, or lordship to found a religion, and no prophecies to boot, seems arrogant at best.  You should let others call you that, rather than call yourself that, as it will rankel people.  With the Lightbringer, I called him that, and even in his RP's others called him that and finally the King called him that.

Niselur may be not a Theocracy anymore, but everyone follows the Bloodstars right now and calling yourself that without earning may make people not take you seriously.  It's like calling yourself lord before you are a lord.

Another question: why prophet?  I don't see anywhere in this where prophecy comes into play.  Oracle, Sage, Seer, or Channeler may be more appropriate.

[Perth]

Another question: why prophet?  I don't see anywhere in this where prophecy comes into play.  Oracle, Sage, Seer, or Channeler may be more appropriate.

The Cultivator.

The Harvester.

[Indirik]

My point of things not making sense has nothing to do with SMA. I get the whole "if she burns, she's not a witch" thing. Rather, what will happen is that your religion will turn off players. You will be accused of being corrupt, power-hungry, tyrannical, etc., and you will alienate those who are the most powerful people in the realm. The realm government won't like you, because cities are so important for the realm. Destabilizing and/or destroying a city will piss off too many powerful people, especially if they are in a foreign realm from the church's power base.

[Perth]

You will be accused of being corrupt, power-hungry, tyrannical, etc.,

Sounds like a perfect recipe for a successful character on Dwilight!! 

[Tiridia]

My point of things not making sense has nothing to do with SMA. I get the whole "if she burns, she's not a witch" thing. Rather, what will happen is that your religion will turn off players. You will be accused of being corrupt, power-hungry, tyrannical, etc., and you will alienate those who are the most powerful people in the realm. The realm government won't like you, because cities are so important for the realm. Destabilizing and/or destroying a city will piss off too many powerful people, especially if they are in a foreign realm from the church's power base.

Well, that's a possibility. I wonder if it could be fed the other way around, that the religion will serve the realm because it is focused on food. The whole point is not to starve the cities, but to feed them, though of course if the faithful were to be persecuted, such food security might become a problem. Still, that's also a veiled threat, so I wonder whether it is viable.

I am beginning to wonder whether the concept needs more work still. There's some value to it but it would be a pity to have a half-arsed attempt and flunk it due to some feature that makes it impossible to succeed.

[egamma]

Maybe if there was a "magic number" that food should not be paid less for, like 37 gold (is that a prime? whatever, it's an example). Make it a sin for a region lord to sell food for less than 37 gold per 100 bushels, and for a city lord to pay less than 37 gold per 100 bushels.

[Tiridia]

One thing should have been obvious to me but apparently it was not. To even get the whole thing going one needs some momentum besides a few encouraging comments on the forums. Mirabelle is a mere stranger in Niselur with no IG history. She would first need to build some reputa tion and credibility.

If Niselur needs a new religion, they are perfectly capable of making it themselves. I do not seem to have the time available for the effort required. Thanks to all who contributed.

[Chenier]

Maybe if there was a "magic number" that food should not be paid less for, like 37 gold (is that a prime? whatever, it's an example). Make it a sin for a region lord to sell food for less than 37 gold per 100 bushels, and for a city lord to pay less than 37 gold per 100 bushels.

Something like this would be sure to attract a certain someone's wrath.