Perdan vs Caligus and Company

[Indirik]

I think there many other factors that have allot more influence, like good leadership, a decent number of good active nobles and geographical position of the capitals of the parties involved.
Just rich regions brings you nowhere without nobles that can take estates there, actually recruit and fight battles.

This is true. Back during the first Caligus/Perdan war, the two fought to a standstill. Then we had that *long* period of peace, and most of Perdan went inactive. In the second Perdan/Caligus war, Perdan got mercilessly crushed, mostly due to inactive leaders who kept autopausing and generally ignoring the game.

[Blue Star]

Atanamir, everything about this particular issue is OOC, not IC. Anything you know that we don't that is IC doesn't change how many people in Caligus actually remember the time period you were describing.

If you have information that changes the equation, then just say it. There's absolutely no reason for you not to.

Why would he reveal information on forum that is IC? I mean obviously some are prying for it cause they are clueless in game and aren't afforded the channels needed to receive such.

Let not bring up old news and get back to playing!

[Zakilevo]

I think the game design is somewhat wrong at the moment or people's mindset is.

It is not that hard to destroy another realm when you have overwhelming strength. This wasn't really the case for the real world. Unlike BM where you can just turn regions rogue and let the game mechanic cause a mass genocide, it was a lot harder to actually destroy a country entirely. It takes a long time to stabilize your newly conquered regions due many factors involved in the integration process.

People need to either learn to stop wars after taking a region or two or there should be a game mechanic which will enforce it.

[Anaris]

Why would he reveal information on forum that is IC?

I neither know nor care. 

Now, if you'll actually go back and read my post, you'll see that I stated clearly that the only information being asked of him—the information that he was claiming he didn't want to give—was OOC.

[Atanamir]

Atanamir, everything about this particular issue is OOC, not IC. Anything you know that we don't that is IC doesn't change how many people in Caligus actually remember the time period you were describing.

If you have information that changes the equation, then just say it. There's absolutely no reason for you not to.

I neither know nor care. 

Now, if you'll actually go back and read my post, you'll see that I stated clearly that the only information being asked of him—the information that he was claiming he didn't want to give—was OOC.

I read it also the other way. Maybe you should be more precise.
Also, if you didn't read everything, a post even got moderated for containing too much IC information, so not everything in here that was discussed about this issue contained sole OOC information, unfortunately.

[Eduardo Almighty]

People are so interested in trying to divide Sirion into new realms that's no matter who has to be destroyed in the process. Obviously, these same people who think that would be more fun to create new realms in Sirion has a very limited vision of their own experiences, saying that this is the best scenario for the development of the game when it's a bunch of bull!@#$. These new realms are nothing more than a distraction to Perdan, who eventually will turn in them, not to make the game more fun to the players, but certainly more fun for the people in Perdan and just it. They are realms without history and without possibility to make a history - they will disappear in no time to give the place to another dull realm intended for the same purpose: to ensure the fun of a small group at the expense of a larger group.

Why did the same in Sirion while the people are having fun with what we have!? Why create a lot of client estates just to turn on them and to secure the fun just to the small group of always the same people!? It's a problem when the wars in game begin to be justified by unilateral visions of players that think their solutions are the best solutions for an entire continent. Even aligning the entire south and even bringing the war to Sirion, taking some regions and forming new kingdoms, this is just a small cycle because Sirion will eventually return and retake these lands, or Perdan managed to convince all players in EC that their way of playing is the best for everyone!? If that is the truth, then the continent is already dead.

In the end, people will seek Sirion or the south, following their right to play the game as they want without the intervention of people that think this or that way is the best to save EC while we continue losing players instead of attract new ones. Then, instead of saying that this way is better for the game, let's be honest and say that this is the best scenario for Perdan. If the players in the north had the same thought, revolts, rebellions and other aspects of the game would have dictated changes. Perdan will not dictate this changes here nor its players will bring changes to the northern mindset.

It can be fun for five or six players, but for everyone!? Pfff... it's best to seek another continent to play than follow what a small portion of players think what is best for EC. The difference now among Sirion and Perdan is that we don't try to govern the entire continent and impose our way to play the game as the only way to play Battlemaster nor we try to impose our vision as the only vision to save the game. This is what happen when the wars in game are just a mirror of the wishes of a group of players and OOC intentions to bring new life in this or that continent.

[Atanamir]

The difference now among Sirion and Perdan is that we don't try to govern the entire continent and impose our way to play the game as the only way to play Battlemaster nor we try to impose our vision as the only vision to save the game.

Eduardo, I will stick only to this sentence since it is for me the essence of what you say.
And yes, I will disagree with you.
Sirion has 33 (!) regions on EC out of 120-130 regions.
You possess 1/4 of the continent.
I am really glad you don't want others to play the game like you do and I am glad Perdan does not.
Because then EC would have at some point a final duel between two realms and then, well let's have that reset, shall we?!

However, Sirion is the example for stagnation in the north of EC.
When I started the game more than 9 years ago, on the current lands of Sirion (and Nivemus) were 9 realms.
Now there are only 2, say 3 if we add Westmoor to it. The islands didn't exist back then.
Now the key question: How many were in the south back then and how many do we have now?
2004 there were 7 realms in the south. 2013 there are 6 realms and only 2 of them are original realms of back then, 3 if you count Fallangard as original realm.

We can therefore say that the south remained realmwise stable despite many wars ravaging it while the north walks towards a dead end.

So, where do you think it was funnier to play?! In the north? In the south?
This you will have to answer for yourself.
But I personally prefer having the possibility to start out in one of the realms in the south and have the chance to experience the rank of a knight till the rank of a ruler than to join Sirion, where you can become something....well, after some years.

More realms mean more chances and quests for players.
That again attracts more interest to play BM.
At least for me.

[Eduardo Almighty]

The south can have now 1000 new realms. Do you have 1000 new players because of that!? In a game that everyone can be a Lord in one week and reach any position of power in one month, I cannot see why it's so important to have new small realms full of people full of power... just to follow Perdan.

You are really interested if people is having fun here in the north!? I cannot remember to elect you as the person who will save the island from ourselves, the stagnated Sirionites. As I said, if people don't enjoy nor want to play in Sirion, why we still have people playing in Sirion? Why we still have people loyal to Sirion instead of puppet realms!? You're not Doc, then don't try to use him as excuse to your plans... the player base was very different before... and much more larger than now.

That's good that now people in the south can play this way, but don't try to impose it to anyone else, since we still have people in the north that is very pleased to play in our model instead of yours. Also, it's our right to decide by ourselves if we intend to change something here. You cannot decide for everyone.

We have players who want to become Lord in their first days, for sure... and also players like me, who like to play the game as in the past, when you had to make the difference to become someone. Now, we have the two options... the easy way in the south and the old way in Sirion. I cannot see the advantage to adopt YOUR way in the entire continent.

[Atanamir]

Do you really think this is about"following" Perdan? Oh well, then I will let you think this way.
Also, these are not only my plans, there more players in Perdan and the other realms who support these ideas, so do not think I am the only one since I am the only one who speaks here...
Also none has said that you should adopt any way... we just agree to disagree, that's all.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Yes, we will see in the end. And don't try to deceive me, if you want to deceive yourself, this is another question. Every realm in the south will think a thousand times before do something just because of their fear to have Perdan entering their wars and deciding the champions. We saw this even here in the north when Nivemus decided to make their war against OI alone and Perdan took advantage of it to keep your player base busy. The same will happen with every southern realm in any war they decide to fight. They are the small weak realms trying to survive and trying to make war without wake up Perdan. If they do, they will be changed for another small realm... deceive these players with positions is just an illusion.

But if they decided for it, they will have to deal with their choices. This is not what we intend to do in the north.

[Atanamir]

Yes, we will see in the end. And don't try to deceive me, if you want to deceive yourself, this is another question. Every realm in the south will think a thousand times before do something just because of their fear to have Perdan entering their wars and deciding the champions. We saw this even here in the north when Nivemus decided to make their war against OI alone and Perdan took advantage of it to keep your player base busy. The same will happen with every southern realm in any war they decide to fight. They are the small weak realms trying to survive and trying to make war without wake up Perdan. If they do, they will be changed for another small realm... deceive these players with positions is just an illusion.

But if they decided for it, they will have to deal with their choices. This is not what we intend to do in the north.

Hmmm you describe now the mindset of Sirion and you project it now on Perdan?
Like when Nivemus got once a Anti-Sirion ruler and Erik wrote me that he will replace the realm?!
And helping an ally is now just an OOC-measure to keep the player base busy?
And Sirion helping Caligus is not keeping your player base busy but is something else?
Ah come on that is now a bit hilarious...!

[Indirik]

People are so interested in trying to divide Sirion into new realms that's no matter who has to be destroyed in the process. Obviously, these same people who think that would be more fun to create new realms in Sirion has a very limited vision of their own experiences, saying that this is the best scenario for the development of the game when it's a bunch of bull!@#$. These new realms are nothing more than a distraction to Perdan, who eventually will turn in them, not to make the game more fun to the players, but certainly more fun for the people in Perdan and just it. They are realms without history and without possibility to make a history - they will disappear in no time to give the place to another dull realm intended for the same purpose: to ensure the fun of a small group at the expense of a larger group.

IMO, the game is more fun when there are ore realms. Super-realms like the current incarnations of Perdan and Sirion have an overwhelming and overshadowing effect on the entire island. Realms near them afraid to make any moves for fear of the big guy getting involved. Small realms that are friendly with the big realms use that friendly relationship as a bludgeon to push around the other small realms.

It's a delicate balancing act between IC and OOC motivations. The two conflict. IC, our characters should want to push and use each advantage they have to accomplish their goals. They should be free to strive and build power and dominate other realms. But OOC, too much of that domination makes the game not-so-fun for everyone not on the dominating side. They are by their very nature, if not by conscious direct action, stagnating influences.

So, yes, I bet that the people in Sirion and Perdan *are* having a lot of fun. They're on the top of the heap, dictating the direction and politics of the entire island. Even if they are not actively plotting it, the effect is still there.

Why create a lot of client estates just to turn on them and to secure the fun just to the small group of always the same people!? It's a problem when the wars in game begin to be justified by unilateral visions of players that think their solutions are the best solutions for an entire continent.

In a way, I agree with you on this. If half the people on an island get together OOC and lay out the way the continent should be, then try to implement it IC, that's bad. But Perdan *does* have IC motivation to beat on Perdan. Hell, four years or so ago, as ruler of Perdan, I sent Perdan marching to war with the explicit intention of breaking up Sirion. Why? So that we could crush their power block and reduce their influence on island politics. Perdan wanted to be top dog. The same thing is still occurring today. Sirion and Perdan are the mega-powers of the island. It's only natural for Perdan to want to bust up Sirion.

In the end, people will seek Sirion or the south, following their right to play the game as they want without the intervention of people that think this or that way is the best to save EC while we continue losing players instead of attract new ones. Then, instead of saying that this way is better for the game, let's be honest and say that this is the best scenario for Perdan. If the players in the north had the same thought, revolts, rebellions and other aspects of the game would have dictated changes. Perdan will not dictate this changes here nor its players will bring changes to the northern mindset.

Again, IMO, busting up the large mega-powers on EC would be great for the game. Unfortunately, I don't think we have the player base to support it anymore. They current aggregation of realms into fewer-but-larger realms is a direct result of the lowered player count.

But wanting to bust up Sirion doesn't mean that the people trying to do it are acting out of OOC motivations. Like I said, Perdan has plenty of IC justification to go after Sirion. You may not agree with it, but that doesn't it doesn't exist.

[Indirik]

However, Sirion is the example for stagnation in the north of EC.
When I started the game more than 9 years ago, on the current lands of Sirion (and Nivemus) were 9 realms.
Now there are only 2, say 3 if we add Westmoor to it. The islands didn't exist back then.
Now the key question: How many were in the south back then and how many do we have now?
2004 there were 7 realms in the south. 2013 there are 6 realms and only 2 of them are original realms of back then, 3 if you count Fallangard as original realm.

We can therefore say that the south remained realmwise stable despite many wars ravaging it while the north walks towards a dead end.

Sirion and Perdan both stagnate their ends of the island, but in different ways. Sirion has chose to occupy the land on their own. Perdan has chosen to replace their enemies with friendly/client states.

Besides, realm count isn't everything. The relative size of the realms is also a huge factor. The south may only be one realm short, but the realms that do exist there are smaller than their previous counterparts:

* Eponllyn is smaller than Itorunt.
* Perleone is smaller than Ibladesh.
* Fallangard was, up until last week, smaller than Yssaria.
* Ubent is completely gone.

* Perdan is 7 or 8 regions larger than it used to be.

* Caligus essentially no longer exists in the south. Except for Domus, most of Caligus now exists in former Fontan lands.

And on top of that:
* Perleone, which occupies lands that used to be Ibladesh, is a Perdan ally instead of Perdan enemy.
* Fallangard, which occupies lands that used to be Yssaria, is a Perdan ally instead of Perdan enemy.

All this adds up to the south being dominated by Perdan as much as the north is dominated by Sirion.

In fact, the situation is even worse than just those. Perdan also counts Westmoor and OI as allies. The only people on the island actively opposing the Perdan faction are Sirion and Caligus. Nivemus might, if they weren't busy fighting OI for the Kazakh peninsula.

Let's face it, Perdan has been amazingly successful at dominating the island. Almost as good as CE is at dominating Atamara.

Now that's not to say that Perdan has done anything wrong. I'm not trying to attack Perdan or the players in it. Remember, I had a hand in creating some of that dominance, too. All I'm saying is that simply comparing realms counts from now to 8 years ago is completely misleading.

So, where do you think it was funnier to play?! In the north? In the south?

Different people have fun with different things. The south is not the perfect mecca for people wanting to have fun. I know plenty of people unhappy with the situation in the south, and plenty of people happy with the north. Different strokes for different folks.

More realms mean more chances and quests for players.
That again attracts more interest to play BM.

More realms by itself mean nothing. What good are more realms if those realms can't do anything by themselves, but are forced to walk a line dictated by someone else or else get destroyed? Living in a gilded cage is still living in a cage.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Like when Nivemus got once a Anti-Sirion ruler and Erik wrote me that he will replace the realm?!

Here I'm speaking as player, not speaking as Erik. I would like to spend my days surrounded by Priestesses too, but I'm not Erik at all 

While I can agree with you and with Indirik in some points, I like to see how the players at last can chose if they want to play in a block with small allied realms or in the north, still inside a great realm. The problem is when you try to force EVERYONE to play this way. IC, there's a lot of reasons for it and even when we don't have, it's easy to create it just for the pleasure to have an OOC plan going on IC. That's ok... I don't play this game with fear to lose my realm or my regions, even when it affect the player base, 'cause nor everyone is like me... some people just leave when they lose what they worked for.

You can have another excuses, but attract new players!? I doubt. As I said, you can have 1000 new realms, but 1000 new players because of that!? Sorry, I doubt. In fact, every plan we had to divide Sirion will be postponed because of the war against Perdan. And if Perdan take and make new realms by the force, Sirion will want to grow there once again... and instead of have new realms, we will continue doing what we always did instead of have the possibility of something new. Then, if that's the plan, I doubt it will be successful in the north as it was in the south. You can harm Sirion, but you cannot destroy or change the old players in power, so you cannot change the mindset by the force... we still remember some bad results with players leaving in rage when it happens.

And please, it's not personal at all. I'm just sharing my visions and opinions. I even tried to make my way inside Perdan, but Atanamir failed with Erik and I'm not ready to pause/delete my chars in Sirion to start one in the south.

[Blue Star]

O_O

Well OOC want Ibby and Fontan(prior 08) back, but we can't have what we want always. I don't think any ooc business is going on concerning warring Sirion, Perdan just wants to fight the next best opponent and with Ibby gone well the largest opponent is Sirion.

I mean if anything Perdan wants it's dominance true their is only one realm that could possible change that.