Author Topic: Improving Combat Round...Something  (Read 9441 times)

songqu88@gmail.com

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Improving Combat Round...Something
« Topic Start: April 18, 2011, 04:30:42 AM »
With two recent somewhat active threads suggesting improvements to the current combat system, specifically unit-side improvements, I have come to form the opinion that, while there do exist some serious flaws in the current system, the way to fix them is not through setting up additional parameters that would serve only to complicate the system even more.

On my personal imagined agenda would be first the establishment of a somewhat reliable logic for all units. Currently mixed infantry are about as insane as they were when I first experienced their insanity in 2007. While several changes have occurred, it does not appear to me that there is any real logic behind how some units behave, especially those stupid mixed infantry.

That's not too bad, the randomness. Many things play a role in the world's ways, but always chaos has its rightful place, after all. But still, a little clearer and more predictable "rules" of unit behavior might help. It's not just mixed infantry either. All ranged forces have some sort of strange behavior in terms of range, and advance/retreat. And I mean *all* ranged units. If at least they were a bit more consistent, battles could be a bit more planned with affirmative strategy rather than contingent strategy (Ok, I'm not sure what the real technical terms are, so I used some colloquial vocabulary. In the former case, I'm talking about something like Chess, where the rules of movement are completely known by both players, and the variable against which to plan is the opponent's moves. In the latter case, I'm talking about something like I guess...Poker? Ok, maybe bad example, but some sort of game where the primary strategy is to form a plan that might not be the optimal strategy in terms of reward/efficiency/whatever, but that which can resist unpredictable variables best, or in the best balance with the desired other outcomes. In this case, the variable that must be battled is randomness itself.)

As far as unit-side and commander-side stuff, I don't see much problem with how it is right now. The stats on the unit describe the necessary components for a "realistic" battle. Mood (morale), cohesion (...), and readiness (training, though this is a bit mixed with cohesion. I consider cohesion to be the interpersonal bonds formed between the soldiers, and training to be the physical and mental conditioning imposed).

But there are probably many things that those more experienced with BM's combat system have noticed that are seriously lacking. This is a call for all those flaws, to see where people are coming from with their feature requests about the combat system. And please add your proposed fixes, and why that would improve.

De-Legro

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #1: April 18, 2011, 04:43:22 AM »
With two recent somewhat active threads suggesting improvements to the current combat system, specifically unit-side improvements, I have come to form the opinion that, while there do exist some serious flaws in the current system, the way to fix them is not through setting up additional parameters that would serve only to complicate the system even more.

On my personal imagined agenda would be first the establishment of a somewhat reliable logic for all units. Currently mixed infantry are about as insane as they were when I first experienced their insanity in 2007. While several changes have occurred, it does not appear to me that there is any real logic behind how some units behave, especially those stupid mixed infantry.

That's not too bad, the randomness. Many things play a role in the world's ways, but always chaos has its rightful place, after all. But still, a little clearer and more predictable "rules" of unit behavior might help. It's not just mixed infantry either. All ranged forces have some sort of strange behavior in terms of range, and advance/retreat. And I mean *all* ranged units. If at least they were a bit more consistent, battles could be a bit more planned with affirmative strategy rather than contingent strategy (Ok, I'm not sure what the real technical terms are, so I used some colloquial vocabulary. In the former case, I'm talking about something like Chess, where the rules of movement are completely known by both players, and the variable against which to plan is the opponent's moves. In the latter case, I'm talking about something like I guess...Poker? Ok, maybe bad example, but some sort of game where the primary strategy is to form a plan that might not be the optimal strategy in terms of reward/efficiency/whatever, but that which can resist unpredictable variables best, or in the best balance with the desired other outcomes. In this case, the variable that must be battled is randomness itself.)

As far as unit-side and commander-side stuff, I don't see much problem with how it is right now. The stats on the unit describe the necessary components for a "realistic" battle. Mood (morale), cohesion (...), and readiness (training, though this is a bit mixed with cohesion. I consider cohesion to be the interpersonal bonds formed between the soldiers, and training to be the physical and mental conditioning imposed).

But there are probably many things that those more experienced with BM's combat system have noticed that are seriously lacking. This is a call for all those flaws, to see where people are coming from with their feature requests about the combat system. And please add your proposed fixes, and why that would improve.

Yeah some of the combat behaviour is needing reworking. I believe it is on the to-do list for the Devs, but the current code is somewhat large and confusing and it would require significant time to rectify. I think I heard something about needing a plan for how the units should behave as well.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #2: April 18, 2011, 04:59:17 AM »
I respect the fact that you listened to my request and saw something good that could come out of it despite mine being the wrong way to go about changing things.

I, personally, think that the overkill sometimes goes haywire.

Zakilevo

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #3: April 18, 2011, 05:16:06 AM »
Well I think the combat system is somewhat outdated. The dev team did some changes but it is just not enough. I am guessing they just do not have resources to change the entire combat system?

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #4: April 18, 2011, 05:18:05 AM »
More like lacking the time, what with the new estate and economy systems, not to mention the treaty system.

Anaris

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #5: April 18, 2011, 05:03:23 PM »
Well I think the combat system is somewhat outdated. The dev team did some changes but it is just not enough. I am guessing they just do not have resources to change the entire combat system?

It would be a truly massive undertaking.

Plus, what other changes are really practical?

We considered a fully 2-D system, where each unit has a position in a grid on the battlefield, and can only fight units in adjacent grids.  But this suffers from various problems, and the biggest is how to display it without it looking bloody awful.

We considered adding flanks, and we may yet do so, but it suffers from a similar problem of display, as well as problems of emergent exploits (which the 2D would have probably suffered from, too).

Given the essential nature of combat in BattleMaster, there aren't all that many different ways we could do it.
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Sacha

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #6: April 19, 2011, 02:18:57 AM »
I don't mind the 'basic' combat in BM, actually. It makes the strategy aspect more accessible for the non-hardcore strategists and those who don't know Sun Tzu's teachings by heart. IMO the game should be focused primarily around the RP aspect, with the wars and battles ultimately serving an RP purpose instead of it being the other way around.

Foundation

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #7: April 19, 2011, 03:02:11 AM »
Personally I have always felt that the combat system can and should be improved, it's just that whatever improvements and changes to the system need to be actually better than the current one, and this is a hard point to justify for any changes.  I've tried to take a look at it before, and I've fixed a few glaring inconsistencies, but apart from that and occasional bug fixes, I haven't done much for that part of the code.

We are indeed moving towards something more uniform and easier to develop with, so perhaps changes to combat will not be that far off, but... in the meantime, ideas are always welcome, even if they won't ultimately be implemented. :)
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Bedwyr

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #8: April 19, 2011, 03:36:33 AM »
Plus, what other changes are really practical?

Make ranged combat more consistent.  Yes, it may be realistic for them to move around, but I'd rather have them act consistently so that could be planned around.

Have MI act like infantry that fire as well.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #9: April 19, 2011, 04:04:57 AM »
I would like to have it where MI only throw once, right before they go into close combat.

egamma

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #10: April 19, 2011, 04:10:13 AM »
I think the top combat-fix would be simple archer/MI logic that says that as long as they have a target (enemy without friendlies on the same row) in range, they stay where they are and fire.

Bedwyr

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #11: April 19, 2011, 05:42:26 AM »
I think the top combat-fix would be simple archer/MI logic that says that as long as they have a target (enemy without friendlies on the same row) in range, they stay where they are and fire.

Agreed.  If they have a valid target, they should be shooting, not moving.
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Anaris

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #12: April 19, 2011, 01:21:52 PM »
I think the top combat-fix would be simple archer/MI logic that says that as long as they have a target (enemy without friendlies on the same row) in range, they stay where they are and fire.

Oh, certainly.  That's already On My Listâ„¢.

That's not a fundamental change, just an AI tweak :)
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Geronus

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #13: April 22, 2011, 12:43:53 AM »
One other thing I would like to see added to the wish list: Allowing cavalry to turn around.

On a couple occasions, through odd happenings, my cavalry have ended up past where the fighting is, in which case they quite literally run to the opposite end of the map and then do nothing but wait. That or they just wait where they are, I can't quite remember.

Example: The rogue unit I'm fighting breaks through my lines and winds up behind me, leaving my unit with no one to fight. Instead of *turning around* and charging into the enemy rear, they do nothing. It's ridiculous.

MaleMaldives

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Re: Improving Combat Round...Something
« Reply #14: April 22, 2011, 02:40:10 AM »
Isn't it sorta of weird that if there is a bit battle with 500 vs 500 infantry clashing in the middle, that somehow a nobles unit knows when then have run low on men and decide to retreat. You think there would be a lot of chaos going on, and to have it so all nobles groups are separated would be a very fractured battle front. Wouldn't it be more realistic that all units of the same type in the same row merge together to be one fighting force? Then when the collective force runs low on people fighting they all retreat. This probable would have worked better with old system where noble's units didn't match up except I like the improvement that a whole line of unit doesn't stay put because of one enemy unit. So wouldn't it make the most sense that all units deal hits, and then individual units receive hits based off the average hits proportional to the unit size with a bit of randomness in there. Then when all the units in the row reach a point where not many men left they all flee. This would also get rid of the one unit holding people back as all enemy troops would leave right away.

Also because of the round based combat, there can be situations where you have 50 men and would retreat if you have 10 or less men. At the end of a round though you have 11 men left, and so the next round your whole unit gets crushed. A system that I think could fix this would be that you retreat mid casualties. Though allow for how badly you are getting crushed to influence how well you can retreat. So for example(don't take the numbers to heart, they are just to portray the idea) you have 11 men but you take enough hits so that you go down to 5 men, but instead you retreat when you are down to 7 men. Now lets say you get enough hits so that you go down to 1 man left instead you retreat when you are down 5 men. Now the error in this is that the unit still dealt the full amount of hits, but ran mid fight. Well the unit that received the hits could get an adjusted version based off how of many units ran.