Author Topic: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger  (Read 18359 times)

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Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Topic Start: July 06, 2013, 01:14:02 AM »
Summary:Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
Violation:"Realm mergers are illegal."
World:Dwilight
Complainer:Colin Kern
About:Alaster

Full Complaint Text:


   Summary: The leader of Terran has agreed to a friendly "realm merger" with D'Hara.


   A verbatim excerpt from a letter from Pierre von Genf:



   


      Grandmaster Alaster has accepted to transfer the regions of Terran to D'Hara if and when he believed that there were no actual chance of defending them.




   As of writing this, both non-capital regions of Terran had already switched their allegiances to D'Hara, indicating that the merger is being executed as planned.



   I believe that a plan to transfer the entirety of a realm voluntarily to another realm is essentially the definition of "realm merger". According to the "Rules and Policies" page on the wiki:



   


      Realm mergers are illegal. Realms may surrender to another, including annihilation of their lands, but they may not merge as equal entities on friendly terms.




   Which appears to be what is happening here. The letter goes on to state that the two realms intend to merge on friendly and pre-agreed upon terms; Terran is not "surrendering" to D'Hara.



Vellos

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #1: July 06, 2013, 01:24:38 AM »
For Magistrates reading, here's precedent, I think:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3486.30.html
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.75.html

We've actually locked dustole for this before; it appears to be his go-to tactic.
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Chenier

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #2: July 06, 2013, 01:33:54 AM »
This is a trickier case: it's not just one person switching the whole realm to another, as happened with Kabrinskia or Lurian splitoffs. Both lords switched on their own, albeit perhaps with a push (a push perhaps more by the allies than by Alaster). Maybe the lords would have switched anyways regardless of what Alaster may or may not have said... A good number of people would have.

Then, what's motivating everyone? The lords want to keep their titles, probably, and figure they have more chances to keep them in D'Hara than sticking around in Terran. Alaster probably just wants to spite Phantaria, or at least prevent the allies from using said regions against the theocracies. Pierre probably just wants to expand D'Hara. And a bunch of other actors involved in this would love to see Terran destroyed, one way or another, and peaceful (for the most part) is just easier.

This is not a case of realms joining as equals, though. Nothing will remain of Terran if this annexation goes through.

Vellos

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #3: July 06, 2013, 02:45:11 AM »
It's tricky from the perspective of the individual lords; the line between "region changing sides" and "realm changing sides" gets hard in very small realms.

At the same time, this seems pretty cut and dry. This is clearly a collaboration between Alaster and Pierre to merge the whole realm in in a friendly fashion.
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Scarlett

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #4: July 06, 2013, 02:55:17 AM »
When a couple of region lords can control whether a realm 'merges' it seems like begging an exercise in sophistry to try and parse the difference between a 'friendly merger' and 'the last lords jumping ship.'

Chenier

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #5: July 06, 2013, 03:18:31 AM »
It's tricky from the perspective of the individual lords; the line between "region changing sides" and "realm changing sides" gets hard in very small realms.

At the same time, this seems pretty cut and dry. This is clearly a collaboration between Alaster and Pierre to merge the whole realm in in a friendly fashion.

Total eradication is friendly?

This isn't like when Luria Nova absorbed the other Lurian realms, to basically continue the Lurian Empire thing they had going, leaving everyone with their prestige and titles. D'Hara is not friendly to Terran. D'Hara doesn't want to preserve or honor Terran. And Alaster doesn't get to keep anything out of it. Honestly, I'm not even sure he'd be allowed to stay in D'Hara even if he tried. He's basically sabotaging his own realm, alone. It also isn't as if the realm is viable: he's not chosing to destroy what could have survived as an independant realm, he's simply chosing the conqueror he prefers. Remember:

Quote
Realm mergers are illegal. Realms may surrender to another, including annihilation of their lands, but they may not merge as equal entities on friendly terms.

This is, in my eyes, a clear surrender, not a merger. They do not merge as even remotely equal entities. Alaster did try to get a bunch of concessions from D'Hara at first, but was plainly told that would not happen. And the Kabrinski family are hardly friends to D'Hara.

Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #6: July 06, 2013, 03:23:07 AM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Chenier

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #7: July 06, 2013, 03:30:21 AM »

Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #8: July 06, 2013, 03:33:16 AM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #9: July 06, 2013, 03:38:31 AM »
Just to add something more: I have heard that there have been at least casual discussions of how D'Hara will re-found Terran out of these lands once the war is over and the brouhaha has died down.

If possible, I would like to see evidence of this. If not, I would like to see some firm denials from people who would know.

However, I would note that casual discussion of such a topic may not end up being viewed as evidence of further intent to break the realm merger rule; it may simply help clarify what is going on here. Much depends on the specifics, which is why I would like to see the messages in question.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vellos

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #10: July 06, 2013, 03:44:42 AM »
Letter from Pierre von Genf   (18 hours, 5 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (30 recipients)
Welcome to D'Hara, Lord Grayson of Gretchew.

I owe an explanation to D'Harans for your coming, for it is not a surprise to me, even though the timing is. I have held talks with Grandmaster Alaster of Terran concerning their realm's fate. As you know, it is very unlikely that Terran will survive the combined assault of Phantaria and the Farronite Republic.

Grandmaster Alaster has accepted to transfer the regions of Terran to D'Hara once if and when he believed that there were no actual chance of defending them. In exchange, he only asked that only Astroist Lords be appointed to these regions, so as to comply with his oath to the church not to leave lands in other hands, something to which I readily agreed. As such, Lord Grayson retain the rights to Gretchew within D'Hara.

The capital, of course, would eventually have to be taken by force, and the same rule would apply as to its Lords.

Which brings me to a plan I have considered for some time now. D'Hara is becoming stretched almost to the breaking point. To keep these lands, it would better to split off into an eastern realm on the islands and the Sallowcape and a Maroccidens realm comprising Paisly, Chesney and Saffalore. Both realms would be viable. Both realms would be republican. And both realms would share a constitutional monarch, King Machiavel, who would hold the single D'Haran crown. I feel this would be a great boon for nobles of both sides.

This can be done quickly if we are to take these lands. What do you say?

Pierre von Genf
Prime Minister of D'Hara
Royal of D'Hara
Priest of Sanguis Astroism



Seems pretty explicit to me.

Also, Hireshmont isn't very involved in this. He didn't even hear about it until today and isn't in either D'Hara or Terran: he's a conscientious objector in a third party realm supporting a war against Terran.
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Chenier

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #11: July 06, 2013, 03:59:18 AM »
Just to add something more: I have heard that there have been at least casual discussions of how D'Hara will re-found Terran out of these lands once the war is over and the brouhaha has died down.

If possible, I would like to see evidence of this. If not, I would like to see some firm denials from people who would know.

However, I would note that casual discussion of such a topic may not end up being viewed as evidence of further intent to break the realm merger rule; it may simply help clarify what is going on here. Much depends on the specifics, which is why I would like to see the messages in question.

It is in no way the refounding of Terran. Talks about the creation of a new joint colony in Chesney has been going on for a while between the regional leaders, but the Chateau originally had nothing to do with it and it certainly wasn't to create a new Terran. Pierre's letter refers to the addition of the Chateau to this plan, but he did not consult the other regional leaders before writing that letter, hence the [email protected]#$storm that broke out.

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #12: July 06, 2013, 05:32:06 AM »

egamma

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #13: July 06, 2013, 06:41:44 AM »
I have the same posts as the Silent One has, saved from my message log yesterday, in case it is needed.

Sarwell

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #14: July 06, 2013, 01:52:53 PM »
As the "plaintiff" here, I think you know where my biases lie. That said, I present another quote from the Kabrinskia case:

Quote
It is currently through a bug that realm mergers with the last duchy containing the capital can join another realm by 'pushing a button'. Even so, any merger of an entire realm by its original conception whether it is by by pushing a button or through the friendly takeover of all its regions outside of a war is not allowed.
Gretchew, Saffalore = "pushing a button"

Chateau Saffalore = "friendly takeover outside of a war"

I would suppose - without knowing - that "war" here refers to a previously active war with IC reasons, and not just mechanics-based declarations of war, because those are always necessary to TO a region and thus "takeover outside of a war" by that definition would be impossible.
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