Author Topic: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger  (Read 18792 times)

vonGenf

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #15: July 06, 2013, 02:24:37 PM »
There's a lot going on behind the scene, so while it's OK to show some letters I sent, don't assume that's all of them. Pierre is currently juggling different options and is not doing a very good job of it. You see the parts that fell to the ground.

To my defense, I'll say this:

-There are no plans to reform Terran from my part, at all. If there are people who have such plans, it's their business, and they'll have to work for it. I imagine it's not impossible, but it won't be part of an agreed realm merger followed by a secession.

-The letter shared is genuine concerning plans to split D'Hara, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

-There is no OOC concertation to achieve any realms merger. The only thing that actually happened is that two region Lords have switched allegiance for their own IC reason. Technically speaking, there is nothing I could have done about it. I could have said "no", but that may not have stopped them from doing what they did. I think there entirely within their rights.

-The anti-merger rule is meant to preclude peaceful merger. There is nothing peaceful about the current situation. Lords of Terran are being thoroughly beaten, and they try to find a way to keep their lands. I think that's entirely legit.

Finally, I would add that the rule (as I understand it) is meant to prohibit peaceful mergers because it leads to large consolidation of lands and extended periods of peace. It is very much not the case here. The situation is likely to lead to more war.

I don't think anyone could argue that Terran is in the situation it is through interaction outside of a war. War is very much the cause of their actions. Acting in a way to force involvement of a third party is a classic move, and there is no rule that says that if Terrans abandon their lands, they are obligated to abandon them to a realm they are at war with.
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Frostwood

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #16: July 06, 2013, 03:48:21 PM »
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-The anti-merger rule is meant to preclude peaceful merger. There is nothing peaceful about the current situation. Lords of Terran are being thoroughly beaten, and they try to find a way to keep their lands. I think that's entirely legit.

It would be different if d'hara was at war with Terran.  As far as I know D'Hara has taken no sides in this.  If D'Hara was beating them then it would be legit, but they are not, Phantaria and Farronite are the ones beating them.
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Indirik

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #17: July 06, 2013, 04:20:48 PM »
I don't see surrendering to a third party to be against the rules. Terran was beaten. The writing was on the wall. The remaining nobles are leaving. Their more powerful neighbors were attacking them. Swapping allegiance to a "neutral" third party is a classic desperation move.
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Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #18: July 06, 2013, 04:55:33 PM »
-The anti-merger rule is meant to preclude peaceful merger. There is nothing peaceful about the current situation. Lords of Terran are being thoroughly beaten, and they try to find a way to keep their lands. I think that's entirely legit.

This is absolutely a peaceful/friendly realm merger. If Terran were surrendering to the realms that are defeating it in battle, this would be acceptable. It is not. Terran is merging with a realm with which it has peaceful relations. This is not a surrender. Desperation move, yes, but only so as to deny its regions to realms it dislikes more than D'Hara. That is definitely not the intent of the rule.
Timothy Collett

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Velax

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #19: July 06, 2013, 05:35:33 PM »
What is the intent of the rule? What anti-fun behaviour is it intended to prevent?

Indirik

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #20: July 06, 2013, 06:06:53 PM »
The fact that Terran was at war, and on the verge of destruction, is what makes this NOT a friendly merger. It is a couple lords fleeing a dying realm to join a third party. If you want to deny that, then what you are doing is declaring that lords are no longer allowed to leave a dying realm, that they are forced to stick it out until the end.

A friendly merger would be two realms, in the absence of any external pressure, joining together as equals to make one larger realm. That is definitely not the case here. The fragments of the realm that used to be Terran are being absorbed by D'Hara in order to escape a losing war they cannot possibly win.
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Stabbity

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #21: July 06, 2013, 06:18:06 PM »
I'm in agreement with Delvin on this. Talks took place between two rulers with peaceful relations, and the result of this was an attempted realm merger. Peaceful actions don't need everyone in the world to be peaceful with them. If you're playing a game with friends, and someone starts to lose and says "screw you, I'm giving all my pieces to Kepler", its not a very friendly thing to be doing. Allowing this to happen would set a dangerous precedent of behavior where every time someone fights a war, random neutral party X gets all the spoils. I just don't see it as being conducive to good game play.
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Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #22: July 06, 2013, 06:25:20 PM »
What is the intent of the rule? What anti-fun behaviour is it intended to prevent?

My understanding of the realm merger rule is that it is intended to prevent a king from voluntarily giving up not only his kingship but his domain, which is not something a King should do.

(This applies equally to other titles of ruler.)
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #23: July 06, 2013, 06:26:14 PM »
The fact that Terran was at war, and on the verge of destruction, is what makes this NOT a friendly merger. It is a couple lords fleeing a dying realm to join a third party. If you want to deny that, then what you are doing is declaring that lords are no longer allowed to leave a dying realm, that they are forced to stick it out until the end.

That is not even a little bit true.

They are welcome to leave the dying realm. They do not, however, have any particular right to keep their regions.

Quote
A friendly merger would be two realms, in the absence of any external pressure, joining together as equals to make one larger realm. That is definitely not the case here. The fragments of the realm that used to be Terran are being absorbed by D'Hara in order to escape a losing war they cannot possibly win.

Terran is merging with a realm they are friendly with.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

vonGenf

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #24: July 06, 2013, 06:49:10 PM »
If you're playing a game with friends, and someone starts to lose and says "screw you, I'm giving all my pieces to Kepler", its not a very friendly thing to be doing.

This would have a link to reality if, for example, dustole was leaving the game. He is not as far as I know. He is embroiled in a multi-realm war and trying as he can to achieve his objectives. The survival of Terran not being on the plate anymore, he tried to spend what he has at a discount to have something to keep fighting with. It's not friendly to his enemies, sure, which is kind of the point. It is perfectly friendly on an OOC level.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

vonGenf

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #25: July 06, 2013, 06:55:02 PM »
They are welcome to leave the dying realm. They do not, however, have any particular right to keep their regions.

A right? No, they don't have a right, their regions may still get taken away from them. They have a right, however, to try as hard as they can within the game to keep them. No one is saying Phantaria can't invade Saffalore - the game only says that if they do so, they need to fight D'Hara now.

Which may very well be what happens.

Terran is merging with a realm they are friendly with.

Terran is not merging. Terran is disappearing. It's being wiped out. As Indirik said, there is no rule that says you must remain in a sinking ship. You take what is yours and you leave.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Vita

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #26: July 06, 2013, 07:03:30 PM »
There is a difference between 1 and 2.

1. Lords, of their own volition, joining a neighboring realm when their realm is collapsing to retain their lordship.  That has happened throughout BM history and should continue.
2. Lords, under influence by their rulers, joining a neighboring realm to give a less hated realm more regions and prevent the more hated realm from conquering them. Especially when the rulers of both realms coordinated such a move with specific terms for those regions.

And hopefully without derailing this thread, I would also note that Coria-Tara seem to have undergone a similar situation as Terran-D'hara, though I don't have the same important messages to verify it, as have been reported here, or I'd have reported it. I'm interested in the verdict of this case first, as well.

Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #27: July 06, 2013, 07:13:12 PM »
There is a difference between 1 and 2.

1. Lords, of their own volition, joining a neighboring realm when their realm is collapsing to retain their lordship.  That has happened throughout BM history and should continue.
2. Lords, under influence by their rulers, joining a neighboring realm to give a less hated realm more regions and prevent the more hated realm from conquering them. Especially when the rulers of both realms coordinated such a move with specific terms for those regions.

This is the crucial difference.

If the ruler of Terran was still railing against his cowardly lords who abandoned the realm in its time of direst need, there would be no case here.

But he's the one who was planning this. That is what makes it a realm merger. Not the fact that lords happen to have taken their regions from a dying realm to a (more or less) neutral third party.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Scarlett

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #28: July 06, 2013, 09:45:31 PM »
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They do not, however, have any particular right to keep their regions.

Pardon my ignorance as I'm unclear on why this rule exists in the first place, but why does a region lord not have a right to his region?

He has more control over it than any other individual. It isn't a pie-in-the-sky title referring to an abstract concept like a realm. The Baron of Keplerville has a big estate in Keplerville and everybody in Keplerville knows him. If he says 'we are leaving this poop realm and joining this stronger realm right next door,' unless he is an absolute arse or has several knights who are not inclined to do the same thing, nobody in Keplerville is going to do much about it.

If Terran had four regions and two of them joined another realm, nobody would say anything. But when two of two regions join another realm it's a problem? What exactly is served by stopping this?

I'm not involved in any of this, I am just really surprised lately by how much effort you guys spend telling people that they can't do what they want to do when the only basis for a complaint about what's going on is a rule designed to stop big mergers rather than anyone actually able to demonstrate harm. I thought BM used to be all about hating rules lawyers.

Sacha

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #29: July 06, 2013, 10:31:22 PM »
*puts on flame-retardant suit*

How is this any different from Solaria handing over all but one of its regions to Luria Nova?