Author Topic: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger  (Read 18791 times)

Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #30: July 06, 2013, 10:39:32 PM »
*puts on flame-retardant suit*

How is this any different from Solaria handing over all but one of its regions to Luria Nova?

a) Given that that situation was, in fact, ruled as an illegal realm merger, and those involved punished, I'm not sure what this question is meant to accomplish.

b) That was actually a two-part process, with the initial merger of most of Solaria's regions into Luria Nova (sans the Duchy of Courts of Stone) being far from a total realm merger. It was only the bug that allowed Sevastian to join his Duchy with LN, despite it being the last Duchy of the realm, that caused the second stage of that to be a true realm merger.
Timothy Collett

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Sacha

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #31: July 06, 2013, 11:14:20 PM »
Ruled when and where? I don't see any mention of it in the Courthouse forums.

Indirik

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #32: July 07, 2013, 04:01:53 AM »
Yeah, ithe first Solaria/LN thing wasn't a total realm merger because Malus left one rural region behind. Therefore it's legit because one guy with a single rural region didn't get to go with them. But when Terran leaves a city behind, it breaks the rules.

This case is bogus. The rule prevents a "merger of equals". In what reality are Terran, a besieged dying realm of three region, and D'Hara, a thriving healthy realm of 16 regions (or so, can't check right now...) anywhere near equals? So the rulers talked about it. Big deal. Alaster said that when it was certain that they could no longer defend them, they would swap, and become D'Haran regions. Not D'Hara and Terran would merge and become the D'Haran Republic of Terra, and all of Terrans council would join D'Hara's council and they would rule the combined land forever and ever, amen.

No, it was "when we've lost, our last regions will join you and become D'Haran, Terran will be dead".

Is it IC spiteful? Hell yes. Is it OOC spiteful? Hell no. There's worse crap that goes on in this game every day. And there's absolutely no way we can start ruling on "I wouldn't do that with my friends". Because at least half the stuff I see people do is stuff you wouldn't see around a gaming table.
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Anaris

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #33: July 07, 2013, 04:12:45 AM »
Yeah, ithe first Solaria/LN thing wasn't a total realm merger because Malus left one rural region behind. Therefore it's legit because one guy with a single rural region didn't get to go with them. But when Terran leaves a city behind, it breaks the rules.

IIRC, Malus left behind a (small) Duchy, including a stronghold. And the Duke was pretty damn pissed.

Terran leaves behind a city, because it is mechanically impossible not to now that I've fixed the bug, and explicitly plans to have D'Hara conquer that city.

This is a material difference. Intent counts.

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This case is bogus. The rule prevents a "merger of equals". In what reality are Terran, a besieged dying realm of three region, and D'Hara, a thriving healthy realm of 16 regions (or so, can't check right now...) anywhere near equals?

A "merger of equals" is not required to trigger the no-realm-mergers rule. Only a friendly merger.

This is planned between the rulers, it is not a surrender, and it is clearly a violation of the realm merger prohibition.
Timothy Collett

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Vellos

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #34: July 07, 2013, 04:15:39 AM »
Ruled when and where? I don't see any mention of it in the Courthouse forums.



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A verdict has been reached, and necessary IG enforcement actions have been taken. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict was:

"The Magistrates decline to rule on the question of realm mergers generally and the secession of capital duchies at this time, due to ongoing discussions among the Magistrates, Dev Team, and Tom. However, the cession of the last duchy of Solaria to Luria Nova and the resultant realm merger was clearly in violation of this rule. Furthermore, it was only possible due to the exploitation of a known bug. Finally, the bug exploiter can reasonably be expected to know it was a bug and that his actions were prohibited given that he took part in a discussion of the issue on the forum in the days leading up to the merger. As such, the Magistrates find him guilty, and shall apply a 1-day account lock.

Magistrates voted 1-7 in favor of the guilty verdict, with 2 in favor of a warning, 3 in favor of a 1-day lock, and 1 in favor of a 3-day lock. A 1-day lock has been applied."

This thread will remain open for a brief time to allow for any questions for clarification regarding the verdict.


http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.75.html

I'll note that the Magistrates have avoided addressing the deeper possible justifications for the rule in the past: so debates about why we should have this rule or not are probably non-starters. Personally, I think this rule is really dumb. But Magistrates don't get to make the rules.

Also, IMHO, this is different from a few lords changing regions because it's clearly orchestrated, and there's a clear intent to ease the transfer of the last region as much as is mechanically possible.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #35: July 07, 2013, 04:27:20 AM »
Yeah, ithe first Solaria/LN thing wasn't a total realm merger because Malus left one rural region behind. Therefore it's legit because one guy with a single rural region didn't get to go with them. But when Terran leaves a city behind, it breaks the rules.

This case is bogus. The rule prevents a "merger of equals". In what reality are Terran, a besieged dying realm of three region, and D'Hara, a thriving healthy realm of 16 regions (or so, can't check right now...) anywhere near equals? So the rulers talked about it. Big deal. Alaster said that when it was certain that they could no longer defend them, they would swap, and become D'Haran regions. Not D'Hara and Terran would merge and become the D'Haran Republic of Terra, and all of Terrans council would join D'Hara's council and they would rule the combined land forever and ever, amen.

No, it was "when we've lost, our last regions will join you and become D'Haran, Terran will be dead".

Is it IC spiteful? Hell yes. Is it OOC spiteful? Hell no. There's worse crap that goes on in this game every day. And there's absolutely no way we can start ruling on "I wouldn't do that with my friends". Because at least half the stuff I see people do is stuff you wouldn't see around a gaming table.

I'd find it OOC spiteful. And besides, the Solaria merge was found to be illegal. People were punished. So you CAN'T say it was legit. Or did you ignore that entire case?

Scarlett

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #36: July 07, 2013, 04:31:09 AM »
How is it that all of you who play on this continent are meant to be impartial in the first place?

This looks like a lot of squabbling over he-said she-said. Why anybody cares about intent for a handgun of regions on a continent with as many regions as players is bizarre.

Marlboro

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #37: July 07, 2013, 04:32:14 AM »
No, it was "when we've lost, our last regions will join you and become D'Haran, Terran will be dead".

Problem: There was only one fight in this war, and Terran won it.

Hell, look at Saffalore the realm. Now those are some tough characters. They're still around, even if it's probably not real comfortable, because that was a real realm that wanted (wants, even) to exist. Alaster folded preemptively. He defeated himself with his cockamamie scheme.
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dustole

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #38: July 07, 2013, 05:19:44 AM »
There is a lot more to this in the background. Another reason this isn't a merger is because the nobles of Terran aren't staying in Dhara.  Dhara got the land for a price.  I'm not gonna go into specifics because I don't want it leaking. 
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Indirik

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #39: July 07, 2013, 05:39:43 AM »
IIRC, Malus left behind a (small) Duchy, including a stronghold. And the Duke was pretty damn pissed.
Wasn't it a single-region duchy? The most substantial portion of the realm, pretty every region that was worth anything, which was what, >90% of the realm swapped allegiance to a friendly realm. The dregs that were left behind were so crappy the realm was essentially non-functional. This was a realm-merger, by all but the barest technicality.

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Terran leaves behind a city, because it is mechanically impossible not to now that I've fixed the bug, and explicitly plans to have D'Hara conquer that city.

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A "merger of equals" is not required to trigger the no-realm-mergers rule. Only a friendly merger.
"Merger of equals" is explicitly noted in the description:
"Realm mergers are illegal. Realms may surrender to another, including annihilation of their lands, but they may not merge as equal entities on friendly terms."

Terran has, effectively, surrendered to Terran. They have granted all their lands, and titles to them, to D'Hara, resulting in the destruction of Terran. This is not a merger. It's spitting in Phantaria's eye, and daring them to go to war with D'Hara to get them back. (And, honestly, I'd LMAO is, as soon as Luria Nova declares war on D'Hara, if Phantaria and the Faronites did declare war on D'Hara and took them back. They totally should call the bluff.)

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This is planned between the rulers, it is not a surrender, and it is clearly a violation of the realm merger prohibition.
Alaster did not propose a merger. He said that when Terran couldn't defend their regions any more, D'Hara could have them. i.e. "When we've lost, and have no hope left, we'll acknowledge defeat, and what's left of our realm will be yours." Terran is, from what I understand, getting crushed. There's no way it can last against both Phantaria and the Farronites, and no one is going to jump in to save the day.

All we have, so far as I can see, is one IC letter from Pierre explaining, in his own words, what would happen, followed by lots of OOC arguing over what does and does not comprise a friendly merger. What we don't have is any of the other letters with the discussion between the two. I don't know how you can assert that this is a friendly merger pre-arranged between the rulers, with the intent of actually merging the two realms, without seeing any of the actual exchange of letters between them. If you are going to assert that the two of them pre-arranged a merger, with the intent fo actually being a friendly merger, should we have some actual proof that this was the case? Let's trot out the letters between Alaster and Pierre, and see what actually transpired. Because all we have is Pierre stating that once Terran is obviously and clearly defeated, the remaining regions will join D'Hara. Which, to me, is perfectly legit.

I'd find it OOC spiteful.
I find a lot of things that people do in-game to be OOC spiteful. Am I now allowed to file Magistrates cases against them?

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And besides, the Solaria merge was found to be illegal. People were punished. So you CAN'T say it was legit. Or did you ignore that entire case?
The second half of the process was ruled against the rules. IIRC, the part of the process where Malus absconded with all but one or two regions, which probably comprised 99% of the realm's population, food production, and gold production, was not ruled illegal. Malus took everything that was truly Solaria and merged it into Luria Nova, leaving behind a technicality.

Problem: There was only one fight in this war, and Terran won it.
So then since you're losing the war, I'll expect to see the Farronite's surrendering to Terran any day now, right?



In any case, this friendly merger rule needs some serious revising. If any rule can be interpreted by so many experienced players, in such greatly different ways, then something is definitely wrong with this rule. How can we expect the playerbase to get it right, when we can't even agree on a basic interpretation ourselves? Maybe Scarlett is right, and instead of enforcing the rules, we've turned into a bunch of rules lawyering [email protected]#$%^&s.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #40: July 07, 2013, 05:46:25 AM »
Honestly I can't see how you can even interpret the rule that way, Indirik. At all.

Indirik

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #41: July 07, 2013, 05:51:07 AM »
I can't see how anyone can interpret this as a friendly realm merger of equals.
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Marlboro

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #42: July 07, 2013, 05:57:25 AM »
So then since you're losing the war, I'll expect to see the Farronite's surrendering to Terran any day now, right?

Actually, we lost the battle but we won the war. Khari told Paul that Alaster threatened to commit political suicide so Paul rushed down to hand him a razor blade. My goal was never to give their lands to Phantaria but to make sure they weren't there to bite us in the ass when we went north.
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Lefanis

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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #43: July 07, 2013, 06:09:27 AM »
Wasn't this rule added sometime after the Rines Republic and Irombro merged into Riombara, as two entities merging to give themselves a fighting chance against Eno Chia?

That's probably what lead to the "on equal terms" part of the rule. The previous two cases regarding realm mergers dealt with bug exploits, this one does not, and shall have to dealt with on the sole issue of the merger.
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Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger
« Reply #44: July 07, 2013, 11:23:08 AM »
I can't see how anyone can interpret this as a friendly realm merger of equals.

The part were interpretation seems to be a problem is the "equals". Seeing as hierarchy is an important part of the game, it is a good place to judge what "equal" means. Well, Knights are equal in rank. As are the various lordships and dukes. It follows that rulers are equals. During a war, there is certainly inequality between the victor and the loser. But to a third party, they are still just two rulers whom are of equal rank to said third party.

Regardless of the measured strength of two realms, they are equal until one has "beaten" the other into submission. Generally speaking, you submit to the guy standing over your broken remains, not the guy watching from across the room.