Author Topic: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria  (Read 4595 times)

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Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Topic Start: July 06, 2013, 10:04:12 PM »
Summary:Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
Violation:Realm Mergers are prohibited
World:Atamara
Complainer:TH
About:James White

Full Complaint Text:
The realms of Silnaria and Coria were at war. Coria was down to their two last regions Lothruin and Menedor of whom Munros characters were lords of both. Tara was defending these regions from Silnaria. However, once Silnaria successfully assaulted the Corian region of Menedor and began the takeover. Both remaining regions were transferred from Corian control to Taran merging the two realms.

As I received no direct correspondence from either the characters of Munro or the leadership of Tara I cannot confirm with letter evidence the intent behind the actions taken and trust that the Magistrates can request access to whatever evidence they might need in that regard. At any rate, the entire realm of Coria has in the past fee days merged with their ally Tara.

Sacha

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #1: July 06, 2013, 10:29:11 PM »
Honestly, when it's just 2 regions and not even a city, is there really any notion of a 'realm' merger? Coria didn't even have a capital, so IMHO it wasn't even a realm anymore.

Geronus

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #2: July 06, 2013, 10:44:16 PM »
Honestly, when it's just 2 regions and not even a city, is there really any notion of a 'realm' merger? Coria didn't even have a capital, so IMHO it wasn't even a realm anymore.

I'm inclined to agree with this to an extent. Coria was not a viable realm anymore. Its only city was taken by Silnaria. At that point I'm not convinced you can call it a realm merger in the sense of the type of transaction we're trying to discourage with that rule.

In addition, Lothruin revolted and joined Tara; it wasn't an action intentionally undertaken by the lord of Lothruin, but a result of game mechanics.

Dante Silverfire

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #3: July 06, 2013, 10:45:19 PM »
Honestly, when it's just 2 regions and not even a city, is there really any notion of a 'realm' merger? Coria didn't even have a capital, so IMHO it wasn't even a realm anymore.

In that case, why does the game continue to recognize realms that lose their last city? I'm not talking about the need for manual deletion but shouldn't the game automatically force all regions and nobles of the realm rogue then once they lose their last city because the realm is dead under your interpretation?

Yet, the game continues to recognize the realm as functioning. Militia can still be recruited and armies still utilized. In addition, all RP I have seen indicates that the playerbase believes a realm to still exist so long as it holds regions and nobles both.
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Dante Silverfire

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #4: July 06, 2013, 10:48:46 PM »
In addition, Lothruin revolted and joined Tara; it wasn't an action intentionally undertaken by the lord of Lothruin, but a result of game mechanics.

But the transfer of Menedor was intentional. It is highly likely that the transfer of both regions was intended but not able to be fully executed. However, such can only be confirmed via access to the letters of those involved. In addition, prior orders by this players characters to the lord of Anfalas were made with the intent of transferring regions to Tara to deny them from other realms. Even though that action may not be relevant to this case the intent can be.
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Geronus

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #5: July 06, 2013, 10:56:06 PM »
In that case, why does the game continue to recognize realms that lose their last city? I'm not talking about the need for manual deletion but shouldn't the game automatically force all regions and nobles of the realm rogue then once they lose their last city because the realm is dead under your interpretation?

Yet, the game continues to recognize the realm as functioning. Militia can still be recruited and armies still utilized. In addition, all RP I have seen indicates that the playerbase believes a realm to still exist so long as it holds regions and nobles both.

You are correct on the technical aspects of this statement, but you are missing what I believe to be the intent of the rule. It is intended to prevent realms from peacefully agreeing to band together to form superpowers, as this stifles conflict. If two realms have been at war and one of them is eventually beaten down and surrenders, it is acceptable for that realm to agree to terms that involve its regions being transferred away, within the limits of game mechanics. It's the two realms at peace merging together that we're trying to prevent. You can point out that Tara and Coria are at peace, but the important element in this case is that Coria has been effectively destroyed; with no capital, the realm is doomed. Its nobles cannot recruit or cash bonds, and its regions are slowly going rogue with no capital support. Their decision as a defeated realm to join Tara is acceptable within the spirit of the realm merger rule, or at least that is my interpretation.

Seeing as I'm rather close to this case (being a noble of Silnaria) I will recuse myself from voting on the outcome.

Sacha

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #6: July 06, 2013, 11:00:43 PM »
In that case, why does the game continue to recognize realms that lose their last city? I'm not talking about the need for manual deletion but shouldn't the game automatically force all regions and nobles of the realm rogue then once they lose their last city because the realm is dead under your interpretation?

Yet, the game continues to recognize the realm as functioning. Militia can still be recruited and armies still utilized. In addition, all RP I have seen indicates that the playerbase believes a realm to still exist so long as it holds regions and nobles both.

You're the one who kept claiming Coria was a dead realm, but now they're suddenly quite alive? Can't have your cake and eat it too, you know.

Dante Silverfire

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #7: July 06, 2013, 11:07:43 PM »
You're the one who kept claiming Coria was a dead realm, but now they're suddenly quite alive? Can't have your cake and eat it too, you know.

Wrong. That was my character not me. Everyone else's characters disagreed of course.

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Dante Silverfire

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #8: July 06, 2013, 11:11:49 PM »
You are correct on the technical aspects of this statement, but you are missing what I believe to be the intent of the rule. It is intended to prevent realms from peacefully agreeing to band together to form superpowers, as this stifles conflict. If two realms have been at war and one of them is eventually beaten down and surrenders, it is acceptable for that realm to agree to terms that involve its regions being transferred away, within the limits of game mechanics. It's the two realms at peace merging together that we're trying to prevent. You can point out that Tara and Coria are at peace, but the important element in this case is that Coria has been effectively destroyed; with no capital, the realm is doomed. Its nobles cannot recruit or cash bonds, and its regions are slowly going rogue with no capital support. Their decision as a defeated realm to join Tara is acceptable within the spirit of the realm merger rule, or at least that is my interpretation.

Seeing as I'm rather close to this case (being a noble of Silnaria) I will recuse myself from voting on the outcome.

Well based upon Anaris' s stated purpose for this rule in my Q and A thread about realm mergers you are wrong about the purpose of the rule therefore your interpretation is invalid. The point of the rule is that no Ruler would ever accede that another Ruler is their sovereign. As Coria had a ruler, functioning regions, and recruiting capabilities that allowed it to continue surviving for weeks I think this falls underneath a realm merger. Tara and Coria were at peace. Thus that tenet also applies.
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GoldPanda

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #9: July 07, 2013, 02:27:36 AM »
I would like to note that this case is very similar to the other current case:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4405.0.html

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Lavigna

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #10: July 07, 2013, 02:44:42 AM »
Personaly i don't see it as a merge.

Apart the fact that it was not "Coria" but leftovers of it that still didn't consist in a realm, the fact Munro was lord of the region gives him the liberty to join with it any realm he likes.

I guess the real question here is if that region would even make it on it's own as Coria realm?Because i doubt that's even possible.All i see is a region with a lord that it's lord decided to add it to a realm, which happens all the time in this game.
Also as far as i know Silnaria sees her self as the real Coria, meaning the other is just regions the real Coria rejected.Not a realm.

All i see is a lord that took his region and joined a Realm, which happens all the time in BM.
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Indirik

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #11: July 07, 2013, 05:06:51 AM »
Well based upon Anaris' s stated purpose for this rule in my Q and A thread about realm mergers you are wrong about the purpose of the rule therefore your interpretation is invalid. The point of the rule is that no Ruler would ever accede that another Ruler is their sovereign.
I disagree with this interpretation. The OOC game play purpose of the rule is exactly as Geronus has described it: To prevent realms from deciding to merge peacefully to create a single larger, more powerful realm. The IC rationalization is as Anaris has stated.
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Eirikr

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #12: July 07, 2013, 05:52:21 AM »
Also as far as i know Silnaria sees her self as the real Coria, meaning the other is just regions the real Coria rejected.Not a realm.

Poor word choice. I can guarantee Silnaria didn't reject them at all.

As far as the actual issue at hand, I could see it fall either way (Not that I have authority...), depending on the definition of a realm meger:
  • If it includes situations where you essentially give up what the realm needs to survive or perform this action to spite the enemy, then I'd say this is a violation. More concisely, any case where it's not a surrender (which requires you to concede to your enemy, not your friend next door).
  • If it only matters whether or not the final region is handed over without resistance, then no, this is not a violation. No players had a say in the final region's turnover... it was automated.

GoldPanda

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #13: July 07, 2013, 06:13:06 AM »
Just so we're clear on the timeline, Menedor changed allegiance to Tara, and THEN Lothruin rebelled and defected to Tara due to game mechanics?
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Eirikr

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Re: Realm Merger of Tara and Coria
« Reply #14: July 07, 2013, 06:24:16 AM »
Just so we're clear on the timeline, Menedor changed allegiance to Tara, and THEN Lothruin rebelled and defected to Tara due to game mechanics?

Yes. I believe it was a full turn (if not, two) after Menedor changed hands that Lothruin rebelled.